I completely understand the security aspect and it is entirely up to you but only a select few here know anything about you (other than details that you post) and this is a pretty low traffic/volume site so there is that... *shrug*

I really need some electrical work if I want expand much more than 2kw (flower only, not including fans, pumps, veg etc...), unless I convert as much equipment as possible to 240v. Service panel upgrades aren't cheap here. I need to add mini-splits or a 3-5 ton central if I go any bigger too. I'm planning on expanding to about 8kw for flowering...eventually. Anything more than that and I'll want a commercial building because my house is small.

I just recently got turned on to the SGSensors line of controllers and I'm thoroughly impressed, I don't know what the prices are on them yet but I'd imagine they're pretty expensive. Once I get some insurance money from my car accident that's one of my investments...

Tell me about it. My electrician quoted me $800 just to run 8awg wire from my main breaker back to my garden. It's a long run with a false ceiling so I'm not that surprised, but damn. I'm afraid of what he's gonna say when I ask for a quote on a sub panel.

As for AC, I'm conflicted because I'm renting so a mini split system is in order, but they're really not that much cheaper than the 2 ton commercial split systems. I'll just end up biting the bullet anyway...

On the bright side, my fancy new Iponic 600 controller shipped. I'm gonna try running CO2 with exhaust and calculate whether it's more expensive to blow co2 out the exhaust or to run AC when I don't really need it. Isn't testing fun?

I've heard that a service panel upgrade can run over 3 grand...plus the needed permits, inspections, etc.

Are portable AC units out of the question since it's a rental? Personally, I don't recommend growing in rentals because landlords (here) often do yearly inspections but some landlords are better than others I guess. YMMV...

That's an interesting controller but I'm still infatuated with the SGSensors systems. I wish I had pricing on what it would cost for everything in their line and multiples of some of the pieces. I think it'll cost more than my needed service panel upgrade. If I had a nickel for every dollar and/or hour that I spent experimenting, I'd have a lot of nickels. If I kept track of it all my insomnia would be worse too.

Insomnia? What's that?

That's what I get, sometimes, when I don't take my Ambien...

Those SGSensors controllers look really nice. Add 8kw and you've got enough to keep you busy for a lifetime.

Can't wait to see your build man.

Yeah, based on many recent emails, I'm going to use the money that I just won from the non-existent UN Lottery after the Nigerian princess and I get married. I'm so lucky!

That 8kw won't be soon, I really need a lot of work on this house to push that many amps and deal with that much heat plus my back can't even handle my 2kw yet. I'm hoping my new system will be easy enough on my back so I can get started again soon but I'm not used to asking for help with my gardens and my family is all out of town so I'm trying to do much as I can by myself. I think I'd like to start a breeding program again too, I'm not sure how big though...

beefxer wrote:The way I look at it each little bit of cost, complexity, labor, etc adds up over years of operation. Upgrading to larger buckets gives you all the benefits of a larger reservoir and none of the drawbacks of RDWC (I'm running that test right now ).

Dosers aren't required obviously but they sure do look like fun to play with. tbh I prefer to mix my reservoir manually and drain to waste, but when I start imagining a 20kw RDWC grow with fancy automation I go to my happy place.

You might be right about the hermies. I can't find the source to back up my claim so it's admittedly anecdotal. I still contend that stressing a plant prior to sexual maturity is not advisable as a matter of SOP.

Anyways, we're hijacking the journal! Can't wait to see more KosherKing!

OK, let's hijack your journal, now that it's complete.

You're right that those things add up except materials mostly last for years and with RDWC (or DWC with a large control bucket) you actually use less labor, long term. I bought some 32 gallon RDWC buckets but they're a little too tall for my 8' ceilings, maybe I'll use them outside for okra or tomatoes.

I'd like to play with dosers too, I really want that SGSensors line of toys...and a few things they don't offer yet.

There is no doubt that "too much stress" can cause many plants to go hermie, it's natural in the wild and it's not an easy trait to breed out but my rule is this; if I get genetics that go herm over simple stresses, I kill them all and grow something else. I've ran small breeding programs and I want to have to *work* to make them herm and I prefer chemical manipulation to stress manipulation. YMMV...

Cool, I don't mind my journal being hijacked with good discussion.

Killing weak strains is definitely a good rule of thumb. However, the new grower probably doesn't know anything about plant stress or hermies, so I was guiding KosherKing away from the pitfalls that I've encountered throughout my gardening experience. For us, a hermie is easily spotted and dispatched, but he might end up ruining his whole first crop over a simple mistake. Just erring on the side of caution as usual... I prefer to think in terms of best practices rather than what I can get away with, especially when I'm giving advice to noobs.

I think that RDWC could require less labor once it's setup and automated, but honestly I think it's mostly a wash as far as effort is concerned. Manually readjusting the nutrient solution is a delicate process that I'm just not quite comfortable with, especially since it never completely returns the nutrient solution to its original balance. It's also a tedious pain in the ass, which is why I prefer drain-to-waste. With drain-to-waste, the nutrient solution is always in perfect balance when it goes in, and it takes very little effort compared to measuring and readjusting old solution. When I try RDWC out I plan on keeping my drain to waste feeding regime (at least at first), but I'm going to need another pump and hose to get the old solution from my system to the drain, which introduces more cost, complexity and failure points. At some point the gardener will have to do a complete reservoir change, even if they're readjusting the nutrient solution, so I see that as a rather large effort compared to my daily bucket swaps.

Then there's cleaning/emergency care... My current setup allows me to clean each reservoir (bucket) every 24-72 hours when I swap in a new bucket. I know that some people get away with running complete grow cycles without cleaning their systems out, but if something does go wrong the grower is forced to move all of their plants out of the system and clean the whole thing, which is another big chunk of labor. I don't even know where I would put my plants while I did the cleaning. So, I prefer to clean each individual part on a regular basis, which isn't really possible with RDWC unless you drain the whole system, and move plants aside one-by-one and clean the individual reservoirs. I'm not sure you can ever really clean out the pipes/tubing that connect the RDWC system either, which is another drawback imo. From my perspective RDWC makes it more difficult to keep your root zone clean, and more difficult to fix it when there is a problem. Plus, when there's a problem in RDWC it can spread to all of the other plants in the system rather than remaining contained in a single bucket.

With all of that said, I'm still interested in the RDWC concept. I think it could be run in such a way that it's less effort to run, and has most of the benefits of my current system. Cleaning and portability will always be relatively hindered in an interconnected system, but if the plants never need to be moved and the reservoir stays free of pathogens, I don't see a big problem with that. After all, Most of the cleaning issues could be solved with best practices that reduce the possibility of pathogens in the reservoir. It's just a matter of figuring out what those best practices are without losing yield in the process.

Alas, I'm wary of losing any amount of yield due to the learning curve/growing pains. So, I'm probably going to stick with my current single-bucket system until I have so many plants that daily bucket swaps become more of a hindrance than fixing potential problems in an RDWC setup would be. The value proposition of RDWC just isn't quite attractive enough to lure me away from my tried-and-true bubble buckets... yet.

As I said, keeping the stress down is always a good idea but if he has hermie-prone genetics he's going to have to learn about them sooner or later. It's pretty common to flower early to determine sex so I'm not sure that I would pick an over crowded growroom over the risk of stress in that case. Growing fewer plants, under the light he picked, is still a good idea.

By adding a controller bucket, especially to a 6 site *DWC system only gives you about 3-4 more gallons of nutrients. That just means that you have a little more time before the plants drink it all and you have to make a new batch. Fewer refills = less labor. If you use an even bigger controller/res then you might go a whole week, or more depending on how big, before needing to make a new batch. Properly designed you can easily clean out the whole system by flushing with clean water, pumping out the dirty, until it runs clear and then using the pump to empty the system to start again.

You don't measure and readjust the old nutes, you use them up (until the level is just above the pump, you don't want to let the pump suck air too long), flush/clean/evacuate the system, refill with RO water, add the nutes (while it circulates), ph the system and then make final adjustments after the buckets have circulated long enough to make sure the nutrients have thoroughly mixed and ph is stable. Simple.

You are correct but about the only advantage to DWC over a controller or RDWC is that nutrient based problems are isolated to 1 bucket. Heat issues are also compounded because you have to deal with warn nutes in many buckets instead of 1 system. Properly designed you should be able to disconnect the buckets as needed but it shouldn't need to be done very often. If you *have* to, you just drain the system or close off valves before disconnecting the bucket(s)...simple.

Even if you don't want to use *R*DWC you should consider controller buckets. Then you can drain and fill easier without lifting the plants (unless there are problems) and you have less refills due to increased capacity. The recirculation part is only slightly more complicated but that's where you need pumps and some kind of distribution manifold. I think that you're over-thinking the RDWC system but only you know what you're thinking. Do what you're comfortable doing. I might be able to get you a picture of my first DWC+controller to show you how simple it really is but I haven't used it in over 10 years, it sits outside in my backyard, collecting dust and spiders, now. It's literally 2 buckets connected by a 3/4" hose at the bottom of each bucket. Switching to RDWC allowed me to remote locate the controller/res which helped with temps.

As I've said, a million times, there are pros and cons to virtually every growing decision that we make.