SisterMaryElephant wrote:I'm looking forward to seeing how this works for you, you have a very well thought out system so now we just need to get you some experience.

Yup,

I'm currently a legal MMAR grower but Health Canada is planning on abolishing legal home grows and distribute commercial licenses instead. Then the growers will distribute to patients via mail order. This was announced less than two weeks after I applied for the program. So by 2014, home grows might be revoked. If that happens, I'd want to apply for a commercial license so I can keep growing my own. This is sort of my test grow.

But if I go down that route I might look into DYI LED panels, but for this I'd need to buy a spectroradiometer with sphere for proper R&D, and if I open a dispensary I would want a gas chromatographer so I can analyze my product myself, and get the proper training to learn to use it. I have a very strong science background (unrelated to botany though) so it's all possible, but as you say, experience is such a huge factor in any business venture. So the hope is that if by 2014 I have half a dozen grows under my belt, I'd be better equipped to put a realistic business plan on paper and go from there.

I also want to establish a baseline on how much I can yield per sqt. According to the book a 600 HPS can yield 250-660 grams (I assume per plant?). Two SS400W is about the same as a 600HPS, I think?

I have no idea what the requirements would be for a commercial license there but you're doing good so far.

*I* wouldn't bother with DYI panels, there really is a lot to building good ones and the experts have already done their homework and they have vendor relationships which reduce costs by buying in bulk. The general consensus is that you'll work more and pay about the same, if not more, for an untested product that may or may not catch on fire. That said, if you want to just because you want to, go for it. There are a couple of DYI threads here, 1 with some links that might help, but this really isn't a DYI LED type forum.

The low side can actually be zero but .25 to .5 grams per watt (not per plant) isn't out of the question for new growers. 1+g/watt is more for experienced growers with well tuned systems plus good genetics and, usually, by that point, they've probably graduated to 1000w HPS lights.

None of our LED journals here have passed the 1g/w mark (yet) and the ones I've read elsewhere that claim much higher yields are suspect for various reasons. I'd say that, based on results and other reports here, 600w LED is about the same as a 600w HID. Perhaps with some tweaking and fine tuning we might be able to beat that but that remains to be seen.

SisterMaryElephant wrote:I have no idea what the requirements would be for a commercial license there but you're doing good so far.

The requirements are standard and the business space I currently own (my current business has nothing to do with botany) would already meet the basic requirements (24/7 video surveillance, anti-intrusion system, respecting all proper electrical and fire codes, etc.) so it'd be easy to convert. If I were to do this I'd prefer to use multiple bigger tents (like those Intense Jardin ones... say 8x8 or 8x10) and grow multiple strains. Multiple tents also has the benefit of preserving your other grows if one goes haywire.

But before going there I need my baseline. And I'm sure whatever plans I make will change as a I get more experience, makes mistakes and encounter unforeseen problems.

Good information to have on DIY panels. Frankly I've just been so overly disgusted by the attitude of so many manufacturers not to mention the amount of misinformation being shared on some forums. For the newb grower like me, it sure wasn't easy to find the proper place to educate myself. I think it took a month before I heard anyone speak of "PAR".

What do growers do when they want a LED equivalent to a 1000HID? They pair a SS400W with a SS800W?

I prefer to stick with one or two strains unless I'm running a breeding program. YMMV...

I'm still not sold on PAR as a useful measurement due to the results we've seen here so far. I've heard a couple of theories as to why results haven't matched PAR data but I'm a results oriented grower.

If cost wasn't a factor, 3 x SS400w lights would be 930w and 2 x SS800w (or 4 x SS400w) lights would be more at 1240w but I wouldn't mix the models if I were trying to beat the potential yield of a 1000w HPS light using CLW products. Which to choose might depend on the shape of the desired grow area. There is no LED equivalent for the penetration power of a 1000w HPS. The 5w diodes that CLW uses on the SS series of lights are pretty darn good but LED is still better suited for short growing styles like SOG and/or SCROG...so far.

SisterMaryElephant wrote:I prefer to stick with one or two strains unless I'm running a breeding program. YMMV...

Two strains would be ideal imho. I could run a "regular" high quality strain and one from CBD Crew (I bought their whole line) which I have yet to choose.

CBD is where it's at for the medical patients.

SisterMaryElephant wrote: There is no LED equivalent for the penetration power of a 1000w HPS. The 5w diodes that CLW uses on the SS series of lights are pretty darn good but LED is still better suited for short growing styles like SOG and/or SCROG...so far.

Do you mind if we ask you hypothetical questions that have nothing to do with our grow? I like to probe great minds.

If Scrogs mitigate the issue of penetration by allowing the canopy to grow evenly, why don't all growers start using LED with Scrog to get the best of both world? I've never used HID lamps but it's my understanding they need to be replaced often and are nowhere near as energy efficient.

Is it the high initial capital investment, the effort vs reward ratio or a mix of both?

CBD effectiveness must depend on the patient, I've tried low THC - high CBD strains that did nothing for me so I try to find strains that are high (no pun intended) in both THC and CBD.

It's your journal so it's not really hijacking if you're starting the conversation but if it gets too involved we might want to move it to the New LED Users section. We've had these debates before.

There are several reasons. HID bulbs do need to be replaced, how often is up for debate and they aren't that expensive. Even at 2-3 per year, it's still cheaper than LED which also loses about 70% of their intensity over the life of a light and cannot be replaced easily. If a 600w LED is about the same as a 600w HID, how is that more energy efficient? I've done the cost/benefit analysis and HID still wins and probably will until the costs come down or the yield goes up.....drastically. Also, HID has been the industry standard for decades, people are reluctant to risk a known powerhouse for something unproven. Furthermore, not every wants to grow SCROG, it is a lot of work and some people just prefer other growing styles and HID lights are more flexible in that regard. Unfortunately there are a number of LED myths that many manufacturers propagate and encourage for the sake of sales. I really do believe that LED will get better and cheaper and may someday make HID obsolete but not today...

SisterMaryElephant wrote:CBD effectiveness must depend on the patient, I've tried low THC - high CBD strains that did nothing for me so I try to find strains that are high (no pun intended) in both THC and CBD.

It's your journal so it's not really hijacking if you're starting the conversation but if it gets too involved we might want to move it to the New LED Users section. We've had these debates before.

There are several reasons. HID bulbs do need to be replaced, how often is up for debate and they aren't that expensive. Even at 2-3 per year, it's still cheaper than LED which also loses about 70% of their intensity over the life of a light and cannot be replaced easily. If a 600w LED is about the same as a 600w HID, how is that more energy efficient? I've done the cost/benefit analysis and HID still wins and probably will until the costs come down or the yield goes up.....drastically. Also, HID has been the industry standard for decades, people are reluctant to risk a known powerhouse for something unproven. Furthermore, not every wants to grow SCROG, it is a lot of work and some people just prefer other growing styles and HID lights are more flexible in that regard. Unfortunately there are a number of LED myths that many manufacturers propagate and encourage for the sake of sales. I really do believe that LED will get better and cheaper and may someday make HID obsolete but not today...

Thanks for putting your thoughts into this. It's certainly very refreshing.

A 600W LED fixture will only draw 480W while a 600W HPS will draw I expect around 680-700W with ballast? So isn't power consumption reduced, even if it's a little? It's certainly greener to run LED. Another point I had written down is that since LED will only emit light in the exact spectrum the manufacturer wishes, you don't waste electricity producing light in spectrums you don't need. From what I could gather in my homework, these were the major pros in favor of LED. I think pretty much everyone is convinced LED are the future, but from all the reading I've done I can't help but feel we're at a turning point. This year and the next five ones will surely prove very interesting.

As I said this is a test grow so we'll have to let the results talk.

In the mean time, here's the pics for today!

Day 13




Do you think they're ready for their first light sensigrow feeding?

Don't get me wrong, LED lights are very good in some scenarios and my opinion of LED has evolved over the last year and a half. As you found out, however, some LED lights are better than others and some companies are better than others too. When I first got here I was still skeptical of LED lights ability to flower but several journals have shown that they can, for me it just comes down to cost and results. CLW gets high marks for their customer service and they earned my respect for that and the sturdy construction.

SisterMaryElephant wrote:Don't get me wrong, LED lights are very good in some scenarios and my opinion of LED has evolved over the last year and a half. As you found out, however, some LED lights are better than others and some companies are better than others too. When I first got here I was still skeptical of LED lights ability to flower but several journals have shown that they can, for me it just comes down to cost and results. CLW gets high marks for their customer service and they earned my respect for that and the sturdy construction.

My guess is it will take more powerful diodes than 5w to match penetration of HID. When the day comes we have 10w diodes we can cool efficiently at halt their current cost it will be the new standard.

One of my hobby is building nitrogen cooled PC and I'm no stranger to being an early adopter. It's kind of exciting to be part of something new that is evolving so quickly, while at the same time you know you're just burning through cash 20-25% faster than you should.