One of the most handy resources I have found was on the website of growstealth.com under the sections of LED Technology and Resources. There are links in the middle of the page on the left hand side which go into great lengths about LED lights and some things to watchout for when it comes to companies lying to customers about products and information.

I am personally under construction with my new setup, however in the next few weeks everything will be ready to grow, errr I mean go

Veg room will be as follows Secret Jardin dr 240W II, 4feet wide X 8 feet long X 6.5 feet tall. Inside I will be running 2 300W Quantum LED grow lights, for bloom I will have a Secret Jardin dr 300W II, 5 feet wide X 10 feet long X 6.5 feet tall. Inside that I will have 3 600W Pro-Bloom LED grow lights.

Both the maker and myself wanted to ensure that I will have enough coverage to get comparable/better results then what is currently happening with MH and HPS.

It is well worth the money to purchase LED lights, just have to take the time to do as much research as possible and make sure you make the best choice you can for your needs and budget. Better to spend your money and get exactly what you require then to spend the money and have it be a waste.

I'd love to get into the cost/benefit debate, it's my opinion that LED is still too expensive for the coverage/penetration but there really are a lot of factors to consider. Plant height, veg/bloom times, genetics, budget, grow style(s), experience, geographic and other environmental considerations. I just feel that LED prices would have to drop to 25-40% of current prices to be worth it...for me.

That said, I still use HID and I'm NOT an LED expert. All of my LED knowledge is from other parties and I can't say from first hand experience one way or another.

YMMV...

Yeah your one of many who still have those issues and concerns SME (SisterMaryElephant).

One of the biggest concerns is many of the horror stories out there of someone paying huge sums of money out of pocket and getting ripped off. That is why it is very important to do as much research as possible, go with a company that has a proven history and good track record, and don't cheat yourself on your budget. If you are getting a deal that is too good to be true you usually are, otherwise your one of the few lucky people who get sponsered.

When it comes to the cost/benefit debate I have been having these conversations with several of local growers in my city that I know. Many are watching me and waiting for the results to see just how much if any benefit there will be.

One of the huge benefits for a majority of growers out there I would imagine would be the low to zero risk factor that infered would become an issue if you happen to be an unlicenced grower.

In reality even at todays costs for LED's upfront, compared to the longterm expense of MH and HPS it is pretty even. In fact if I had to say that one is cheeper then the other it would actually be LED.

My reasons for this is the LED cost is just that, upfront. If you take care and protect your lights, LED, MH, and HPS then they will have no issues performing for their lifespan.

With MH and HPS if you are using them to their requirements you should be changing the bulbs as often as once a year. The cost of a solid 300W LED from Quantum which can replace a 400W is only $649.00. When you factor in the cost of your ballest and hood reflector you can easily spend $300.00 for a solid setup on your 400W MH. Factor in $50-100 for a new bulb every year and within 5 years your out more then the cost of the LED which you can have in use for 10-15 years.

Then when you consider how your spending money month after month on energy costs to operate your 400W MH even when it is producing lighting that is being "wasted" due to the fact that it is not in the spectrum that plants can actually use, that is just extra wasted money for nothing when you have the option to consume less energy and produce a light source that is actually designed for growing plants. Obviously it will depend on your setup, the actual dollar amounts you will save, along with the number of lights, and the cost of your electricty, but even $5.00 a month savings is $60.00 a year and $600-900 over the 10 to 15 years.

The cost to buy a HPS 1000W bulb package can be upwards of $600.00 for a solid setup (by solid I mean a good tested brand). Greners.com has one listed for $657.95. The bulbs can be between $80-260, to replace once a year. A 600W Quantum LED is $1149, if you want it for bloom only aka Pro-Bloom it is then $1349.00.

Also depending on your climate, you have to factor in A/C or cooling costs to operate your MH and HPS, when with LED there is no added cooling cost, if anything you may have to extra heat in winter time. Lets just say for the average grower it's maybe a difference of $5.00 a month on average. I would imagine that it would be higher to cool off MH and HPS all year long then to increase your heat in your home for a few months of the year with LED's, however $5.00 is a safe amount imho.

The cost for 1 300W and 600W LED light would be $1798.00 or $1998.00, plus tax and shipping if there is any in your location, the highest amount is for the Pro-Bloom 600W light.

The upfront cost of the 400W MH and 1000W HPS is about $1000.00 depending on how fancy you wish to get. After two years of using a LED factoring in the savings on electricity and cooling costs ($5.00 each per month average for sake of arguement) that is $10.00 a month X 24 months for a savings of $240.00. Reducing the cost from $1998.00 to $1758.00.

After two years of use and atleast one bulb change in each of the MH and HPS, using an average reasonable cost on a bulb for each say $75.00 for a 400W and $125.00 for a 1000W HPS your looking at an additional $200.00 on the initial setup cost of $1,000.00. Now your new total of $1,200.00 also does not have those energy savings and your paying that extra $240.00 out of your pocket the new total jumps again to $1,440.00.

Now we are talking about a price difference of $1758.00 compared to $1,440.00 which is only $318.00 after two years. It would be only $118.00 if you did not choose the Pro-Bloom 600W LED. By the time year 3 comes around you are either on par or having extra profit in your pocket from having LED's compared to MH and HPS.

There is another factor that I haven't tested myself yet so there is no way to know the actual benefit exactly yet in dollar amounts, however common sence will tell you that there is one there for another added Bonus to having LED over MH and HPS.

That is the fact that MH and HPS operate very hot. LED's are no where as near as hot as MH and HPS. Regardless if your running in Hydro or in soil or whatever, you are going to lose some of your water and nuets to evaporation. LED's will help you to save money over time on the cost of your nuets (meaning that they will last longer over time then compared to MH and HPS) and you will save on water costs.

I like to save money as much as the next person, so the dollar amount return on my investment in only 3 years is more then enough reason for me to want to switch now instead of later, but the added environmental benefits with consuming less water (which the world is at a crisis point currently with fresh water on a global scale that is actually drinkable) and less energy.

These are just my personal reasons for why I made the choice to go with LED's, I spent just over 2 months doing as much research as I could to learn as much I could about LED's, I spoke to a whole bunch of companies that manufacture LED's, after that was all done, I went with the one who I felt I could trust the most and who had the equipment to fit my needs.

I will be sure to keep you guys and gals posted about what the actual dollar amount savings on nuets are and the increase to my water bill compared to a friend of mine who is growing the same plants under a 400W MH and 1000W HPS. My setup will have twice as many plants and 3 extra lights so I will offset my use compared to his use by 2.5.

All of our nuets are exactly the same brands and the soil is the same, 10 minute car ride from my setup to his so pretty much a head to head. Cycles will be started at the same time so we will see who gets better results.

Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

Nice, thank you for the thoughtful and well detailed analysis. You make some very good points but I'd like to look at the math from another angle and make a few other points.

1) Regarding infrared detection. I'm not worried abut that, at all, and I'll explain why. In order for infrared detection to be admissible in court, they'd need a warrant. To get the warrant, they'd need probable cause (PC) which would indicate they know about your grow already and mistakes have already been made. A lot of people think that if the "law" sees a hotspot, while flying around or while looking for some random suspect who'd running from the cops at night that the hotspot in itself is probable cause but it is not. They don't know what you're growing, you could be growing tomatoes or orchids for all they know. So, if all they have is a warrantless accidental detection, all they can do is watch you and try to find something else to indicate a crime. If they already had a warrant, you were hosed before.

Also, LED lights DO produce heat, just not much from the bulbs, it mainly comes from the circuitry and they use heat sinks and fans to dissipate it into the grow area. I'd still guess that it's less heat but a room full of LED lights would still show up on IR so that's why that's not a consideration for me. Also, they do make a thermal paint that helps mask the heat signature for the overly paranoid but I wouldn't bother for smaller grows, less than say 6-8kw.


2) Lets see where we can agree. I think we'd all agree that some costs are going to be the same or nearly the same no matter which lights we use. We still need water, nutrients, odor control, soil or hydro setups, tents (if used) and other things that wouldn't change based on lights. Agreed?

3) I think we'd also agree that LED lights and HPS ballasts have about the same lifespan of 10-15 years. I'd add that AC units (portable/window/whole house type) will last that long or longer. Also, I'd say that "can fans" that are often used in grows will last about the same as well. Agreed?

4) OK, here's where I use a little bit different math. I base my grows on 1000w systems, although some of my clients have requested smaller systems. While you're right some HPS lights can get very expensive, I've been using them for many years and I can tell you that almost everyone can get a good quality 1000W HPS complete system for 400.00. Will the 650.00 light be a little better? Maybe, maybe not, but the difference should be negligible based on experience. Some of my clients want top of the line everything, some want budget everything and I'm comfortable recommending systems for 400+ based on the results I've seen. That includes a ballast, an air cooled hood with glass, cords and 1 bulb.

Of course, since it's air cooled we'll need a 6" fan (~100w) to pull cool intake air and push hot exhaust out, that'll run say 200.00 (that's rounded up) and miscellaneous ducting that lets say runs another 50.00.

Let's also account for replacement bulbs using your 75.00 estimate and we'll assume the life of 15 years for another 1125.00

Total 1,775.00 (so far, right?)

5) Here's some other issues, for me; coverage and penetration. A single 1000w light will cover a 5x4 area based on the generic recommendation of 50w/sq foot and based on the average reflector pattern of the common hoods.

I haven't heard much about the lights you're using so I'll include the lights we were talking about a few posts earlier and I'll also stick to nickgreen's recommendation of 40+w LED/sq foot. I'll do the same analyses with your lights just to be thorough.

a) Using 180w Illuminators I'd need 5 if we used a #5 "dice pattern" that's 3000.00 and 45w/sqf but I'm not sure that you'd get the right space coverage, we'll call that close enough.

b) Using your 600w Quantum lights, I'd need 2 to get over the 40w/sqf goal but that gets us to 60w/sq foot but, unfortunately, one light would only be 30w/sqf and would not be enough to cover the same area. At an average of 1200.00 each that's 2400.00 (better than the prosource solution)

That said, we still have to cool and power our lights:
1 x 1000w HPS (1000w draw + ~100w for the air cooled hood fan)
6 x 180w (unknown actual draw)
2 x 600w LED (550w draw each)

While a single LED might use less power and put out less heat than a single 1000W HPS light, it appears that the 2 of them at 600W uses a little more power to run them and I'm guessing the heat output would be close to equal now too, especially after air cooling the hood.

5 x 180 only uses 900w but you have 5 heat sinks and more lights pumping heat. Again close to the air cooled hood but maybe a bit cooler.

Other differences:
1) 180w lights use 1w LEDs and you'll only get enough penetration to grow 3-4 foot plants. This one uses the least power but the lights alone cost 3000.00 and that's almost double the HPS system.
2) 600w lights use 3w LEDs and you'll be able to grow 4-5 foot tall plants. This one uses as much or more power than HPS, costs 700.00 more than HPS. By time you air cool the HPS hood the heat should be about the same.
3) 1000w lights can grow plants over 6 feet tall.

As far as I'm concerned the cost/benefit analysis really depends on growing style and number of plants.

Scenarios:
a1) If you grow a LOT small plants, like a SOG, you might be better off with the 2 x 600 LED because you could cover 30 sqf and get in more plants. The downside is the more plants you grow, the more you have to worry about the Feds or state plant limits. but it still costs more to power and maybe as much to cool. You get more harvests per year but each is smaller.

a2) If you grow a short SCROG type grow; you might be better off with the 180w or the 300w lights but it will take the complete life of the lights to make up for the added cost of the lights if you assume that the power and heat is nearly the same, it's certainly not significantly less. Fewer harvests than SOG with more weight but more harvests than trees with less weight so it's somewhere in the middle, SCROG grows require a lot of maintenance though.

a3) If you grow trees, 5-7 feet tall, you'll certainly want the 1000w light because the others can't do it. You'll also grow fewer plants because they'll be bigger and more bushy which helps with Federal and state plant limit concerns but you get fewer harvests per year due to the increased veg time.

Even if the heat usage is a lot less, and I'm not sure that it would be, for LED a 300.00 portable A/C unit will cool a small room with 2-4Kw of HPS in tents, assuming that you use air cooled hoods with no problem.

With multiple lights that changes things too. Technology allows a grower to use 1 ballast for 2 hoods/bulbs for flower by using separate tents/rooms, 12 hours one area then it flips to the other hood for 12 hours. When you ramp up to 4/6/8+ HPS lights in 2 flower rooms the money saved on ballasts alone makes the HPS far cheaper than LED.

Here's the thing and I could be off or I might be forgetting something, if you have to buy more LED lights to cover an area (and that compounds if you compare 2+kw HPS systems) you *will* have to pay more for startup costs and IF (that's a big if) you make a ROI, at all, it won't be until the very end of the life of the lights. To me, that makes the HPS more versatile, I can SOG, SCROG or grow trees with the HPS but I'm limited with LEDs.

If LEDs were much cheaper and had a bit more power, they might be able to replace HID lights, but I don't see it by todays technology and prices. Tell me where I'm wrong...

Comments?

I love a good debate SME I wont tell you that you are wrong, just that we may have different opinions. Nothing wrong with that. I think we can both agree that there are so many factors to consider when choosing any style of lighting. It greatly varies from set up to set up. Which we both agree upon.

Had some errands to do until now, so due to time will have to keep this short and sweet.

With ballasts I am not sure I would agree that they last for 15 years, not even sure when they reccomend to change them in number of years our amount of hours used. I do however know from another growers experience over the past three years they have had to replace their ballasts once each (a 400W and 1000W Ballast). The 1000W was about a year and a half ago and the 400W was in the past 6 months. You may know alot more about this and if it is a problem or not, but their 1000W ballast is currently "leaking" this brownish liquid from where the power supply is connected.

I know with LED's there can be similar types of issues with diodes burning out and needing repair or replacement, and over time (longer use with LEDs IE: 5-10 years) I would imagine even the best built system will still have some minor issues.

The coverage area that is recommended vrs what you can actually get away with will vary by which company you choose and how the LED light is manufactured. The Lens quality and angle play a huge factor in this, with regards to 60, 90, and 120 degree angles.

I personally would not imagine that the average or common grower is usually growing trees much larger then 5 feet tall, and there are many videos showing commercial growers with huge facilities and an abundance of space who grow plants that tall and producing comparative if not better yields to MH and HPS.

When it comes to the intensity of the light I will quote from the supplier since I am not an expert by any means, and it is easier to understand comming from the horses mouth.

"The inverse-square law states that the intensity of light radiating from a point source such as LED, is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source. This means that an area (of the same size) twice as far away from a light source at full intensity, receives only one-quarter of the energy as shown in the image to the right. As distance continues to increase from the source, light intensity subsequently decreases.



The most popular methods of measuring light intensity are expressed in units of lumens or PAR. Lumens express how intense a light source is to the human eye, while PAR expresses how intense the same light is to plants. HID manufacturers have been confusing people for decades by rating their products in lumens, when this has nothing to do with photosynthesis or quantum efficiency. So while a 1000W HPS may emit 145,000 lumens to the human eye, the PAR (photosynthetic) value they emit at 12" is roughly 2000 micromoles, which is equal to the sun on Earth. Therefore, when comparing HID to LED, the only reading that matters is micromoles.



Light Intensity is determined by 2 factors: the total light output from a source, and how it is dispersed over an area. Our GS600 grow light produces over 2000 micromoles at 12" from the glass, rivaling the output of a 1000W HPS!"

I use this quote to illustrate that it is more then possible (once again depending on your setup up and all the other factors involved) to replace your 1 1000W HPS light setup with 1 600W LED light. If you are able to achieve this for your set up that is where the energy savings come into play. Using your own breakdown the HPS setup is using over 1100 W compared to the LED (gs 600 and pro bloom) which is only using 550W. Since the heatsinks are already included in the wattage for the usage of the LED light there is no additional added cooling cost energywise to run this set up. The only need of an ehaust fan is to help control odor and you will need osilating fans (if you wish) regardless of the lights.

Using my personal setup my fellow grower's current set up with MH and HPS (400W and 1000W) is able to grow and bloom upto 15 trees in soil. The 400W is on 24 hours a day and the 1000W is on 12 on 12 off. Correct me if I am wrong but I would assume that is 400W and 1000W an hour in usage? If that assumption is correct the 400W would equal 9600W a day and the 1000W would be 12,000W for a grand total of 21,600W.

Compared to my setup with double the plants and an extra LED light, lets see how that will compare...
2 300W with an actual out put of 240W on for 24 hours a day is 11520W and the 3 600W LED's will be on for a 12/12 cycle for an actual draw of 19800W. My grand total is 31,320W, if they doubled their setup to properly compare to mine then they would have a total of 43,200W a day usage. Even with an extra 600W LED light I am still 11,880W lower on a daily basis. That is a huge savings over time. I didn't even add on to that the added cost of running the air cooled fan at 100W an hour on the HPS 1000W bulb. That would make it over 13,080W less usage if you have it on for only 12 hours at a time.

I would imagine that my setup is rather large for the "average" grower I would guess that the majority of hobby growers have less then 10 plants and limited space.

If your aim is to convince growers to not switch to LED and stick with HID such as MH and HPS, either for the comfort factor or because it effects your business (?? not sure since you mentioned that you have clients), lets face it, HID is a easy proven way to grow and you know exactly the output you should gain from using HID as your lighting source. Now I am currious if you are just a shop owner or if you maybe somehow involved in the making of HID lighting??

Either way you seem to be very knowldgable about what your speaking about, extreemly helpful with many good ideas and suggestions, and I am happy to have crossed your path and spoken with me

The one thing I would be pointing out to people considering switching from HID to LED is the number of phoney claims out there by LED makers. Many are fraud, such as the post I made with regards to hydrogrowled, just relaying the hard work and information done by members of other forums. Even some widely used and popular companies that sell LED lights use some very misleading misinformation. I spoke directly with a few companies who claimed that their products are more expensive due to the fact that they use only Cree diodes, when based off their own spec's anyone can research and see that cree does not make the color spec or style of diodes they say that is in their product.

"Another trick many companies like to use is naming their LED Grow Lights off the "LED Wattage". For example one company makes a light called the "357 Magnum" and even puts the power consumption as 357W, however the light uses only 119 x 3W-3Chip LED's, or it has 357 chips. The actual power consumption of the unit however, is only 166W. Companies like this use mis-directed marketing and false labeling to convince the customer they're getting more than they really are!"

Above is another quote that can explain it better then I can.

If you are using a 3W-3 chip LED and planning to grow a larger number of soiled trees (3-5 feet tall) you will find yourself in some serious trouble if you try and achieve this with only 1 or 2 or even 3 of the above mentioned lights.

This whole debate (maybe I am showing my age) reminds me of the whole beta vrs VHS, only HPS and MH are the beta and VHS and LED would be more like DVD. Sure the technology is still comming along and has leaps and bounds to go to become even better then it already is, however it takes people willing to take a calculated risk with alot of due dilligance to purchase the lights to keep the good LED companies going with enough dollars in thier pocket to invest in further R & D.

The one thing we have yet to speak of about one major advantage that LED has over HID lighting is (what made me decide to purchase my lights from this company) the addition of "green" lighting being used along with the other 3 regions of PAR. When I first heard of this I was thinking the exact same thing as you probally are right now, why would you use "green" lighting it is no added value or benefit??

However after I did a little research on my own (thank you google) I found some information (most of which made my head hurt) and after a few weeks of reading I found out there is some method to their madness. NASA has studies which you can find on the web and read up upon that show/prove that you can drastically alter the flowering times and yields of plants when you properly balance all the areas of red and blue light ( 439 NM 469 NM 642 NM and 670 NM), that they can absorb more red and blue light when in the presence of green light.

When you are using HID (MH and HPS) compared to all LED makers (except grow stealth led) HID has this advantage over LED as HID is offering the green in the full spectrum compared to tri and quad spec LED. Not to be confused with stealth grow, grow stealth was the only LED company out there to focus on the actual science of growing and making use of this occurrence.

I already mentioned about the lower amount of nuets needed during LED grows compared to HID due to the fact the the temp it operates at is much lower for LED and therefore has less evaporation due to the lighting source. That is what I kept hearing over and over and over again from growers or people who are in regular contact with growers who had already switched to LED lighting. Nuet burn and root rot was a major problem for many growers since they used the exact same feeding schedual and routine, yet the only thing that changed was the Lighting souce.

Anyway I will await your reply I have go on for awhile.

Good, I love a good debate too, I learn a lot during the back and forth.

Most modern ballasts are rated at 80,000 hours, some lower - some higher. I've seen many that are over 10 years old. If your friends are experiencing ballast problems it may be environmental; heat, humidity, etc.

Yeah, even a new LED product can have a bad diode, manufacturing is getting better but there are cheap diodes out there too.

I have never seen an LED grow with plants that are more than 4...MAYBE 5 feet tall. I'm talking from the top of the grow medium, not from the floor. They just aren't powerful enough.

I read that link from your LED site and they're partially correct and some of it is sales hype, imo. It's very true that the intensity drops off the farther you get from the source. I would not put a 1000w HPS on the same level of the Sun. However, it's not accurate to say that a 600w LED that only covers a 3.5'x4' space (according to their web site) is equal to a 1000w HPS light that will easily cover a 4'x5' area; one of these things is NOT like the other.

Yes, wattage is rated in watt hours. A 100w light bulb uses 100w every hour. If a house (with or without a grow) uses 1KWh that means it uses an average of 1000w every hour, usually averaged over the period of 30 days.

Yes, your 600w light only uses 550 watts and that does include the fans but my point was not that the fans use more electricity but rather that the heat sinks put HEAT into the grow room, like a HPS bulb puts heat into a grow room. While one light is surely less heat than a 1000w HPS, you can't cover the same area with one light so you need more lights to cover an equal area. more lights equals more expense and multiple lights equals multiplied heat.

My contention is that one 1000w air cooled HPS hood will put less heat in a room than LED IF you have to use more LED lights to cover the same area. I'm not sure what the heat "load" of each of your lights is but I was recently at a grower expo and I checked out all of the LED lights while there. I noticed little heat UNDER the LED lights but the LED "hoods" themselves and the air coming out of the fans was very hot. A properly cooled HPS hood is a LOT cooler than a hood that is not cooled. Now they even have water cooled HPS hoods that are so cool you can actually grab the glass which means you could literally drop the light down to touch the plants (although I wouldn't get them that close) if you wanted.

I really couldn't say what the average grower grows, given legalities, expenses and everything it might be small or it might be large, there are a lot of people growing a lot of product though. Most of my clients average 1-4kw and the larger ones exceed 12kw. I generally don't work with hobby growers though, all of my clients are patients or collectives.

Oh no, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything, if people want to buy LED then they should buy LED. I'm just here getting more LED information and sharing what I've learned. I do have a patients garden consulting business but I'm not even taking new clients, I'm not advertising any contact info (no name, website or email), I have no affiliation with either HID nor LED manufacturers. I have no grow shop. When I consult for a patient, I go to their house or grow site, I check everything out and find out what they want to do and I make suggestions. I don't do electrical work but I might tell them they need some, it then up to them to hire contractors to do the work...or not. I USUALLY don't even build grow rooms, I just help them design them. I have helped some patients build but those are rare cases, usually, only terminal patients, elderly, veterans, etc. I also sometimes help them with plant/pest/nutrient issues, they take pictures or I'll visit their gardens to help them, with advice, when their plants are sick. I usually don't even recommend "brands" but I will go with patients to hydro shops to help them pick stuff or they show me things online that they want my opinion on. I never tell them what to do, I only suggest what I might do in their situations, it's just consulting. It's NOT a full time business either, I do I.T. Consulting for real money.

Yes, I'm aware of the LED arrays too, I've seen the claims (3w-3chip) and I'd stick to single diodes too. I'm just wishing that we had 7-10w diodes available and, as I said, I wish LED was much cheaper.

Don't take this the wrong way but almost every LED co claims the same thing as stealth grow. If you go back a few posts I linked a youtube video from prosource LED and they make similar claims too. The folks here like Mathew and nickgreen swear by prosource led too. Maybe they get paid for that, maybe they don't, I just take advertising claims with a grain of salt. I think I already proved that prosource inflates their area coverages for their lights. I'm not saying prosource lights are bad and I'm not saying stealth grow lights are bad, I'm looking forward to seeing some of these test grow reports, including yours.

I still don't think the temps are that much lower if you compare air or water cooled HPS to LED. LED light vent heat into the grow room and HID hood remove it. LED is obviously cooler compared to a non-cooled hood.
nute-burn is due to too much nutrients not light heat, in hydroponics you have to monitor that often, in soil you have to be careful to not over fertilize and flush with water sometimes to prevent salt build ups. As I say every post, I've never used LED personally so maybe there is something that changes but no other kind of lighting has that effect, as far as I remember. I wouldn't expect a difference in LED either. I guess you'll find out.


Good times...good times.

Morning, I just returned from checking the name brand of that ballast in question, it is a Lumatek digital ballast. Any ideas of what/why that "leaking" brownish liquid is comming from the power supply area?

Yeah that is why I recommended that site, it has alot of useful and trustworthy information. Of course they have some sales hype in the mix too, lol but hey they are trying to make money too just like the rest of them. Atleast they are not out right lying, cheating, stealing, and misleading customers.

Just to clarify, they were not saying that a 1000W HPS bulb rivals the sun, just that at the range of 12" away a HPS bulb emits around 2000 Micromoles of PAR which is equal to the sun (IE: standing outside on a clear sunny day, because the micromoles emitted from the sun at our range from the sun is comparable). In the next paragraph they went on to mention that since at the same distance (12") their LED products emit over 2000 micromoles it rivals the output of a 1000W HPS (that is the gs 600W they are speaking of), rather then saying that it has more output then the sun itself. Because anyone with a spec of common sence knows that would be total BS. The whole point of that is to relay in a logical manner that is easy for the average joe to understand how the comparison is made. Also keep in mind this is a scale of PAR not lumens, lumens is how intense a light source is to our eyes while PAR is to a plant.

Just because you are able to make a PAR light source that is equal to the sun's PAR abilities or even greater then, does not suggest that they are somehow able to replicate the suns effects from 12" away.

When it comes to coverage area, there is a huge difference between recommended areas and what growers actually use. I personally know more then a few growers who "cheat" and use only 1 1000W HPS to cover a 5 X 5 area. Of course your not going to get the max yield by cheating buy over the past number of years I have seen no real hurt or side effects by them doing so. I am sure you are aware of more then 1 or 2 people who have done or do the same.

I myself will be doing so my first cycle in the set up with a 4 X 8 area and only 2 300W veg lights that are LED. Their coverage area reccomended is only 2.25' X 3.25' per single LED light. That is why all those unique set up factors that change from grower to grower all come into play. I will for sure keep you posted is to what if any effects this has on my overall out put.

That price I listed earlier for the 1000W HPS package of like 650 was for a water cooled 1000W ballast, looks pretty cool too.
The problem I see with how you did your math when it comes to the number and amount of lights needed for the same coverage area, is A.) I find it hard to believe that the everyday average home grower is using their lighting systems to the exact specifications and recommendations of the maker. With regards to using the entire space they possibally could or using too much space, IE: Over coverage / under coverage.

B.) If lets say I find an issue with just not quite enough coverage for my liking by replacing 2 400W MH systems for 2 300W LED systems, that does not mean I have to go out and purchase a 3rd 300W light. I could have more then enough from a 90W UFO, or extreeme case the 180W Jumbo. Assuming your running a cooling fan on your 400W bulbs that is a total of 1000W per hour, just to operate your lighting system. The LED is 240+240, even if the Jumbo was a full 180W which I doubt it is, either way is only 660W, 340W per hour less.

I am not sure which brand of LED lights you have seen in operation in person, but I have personally seen a wide selection in action form atleast 4 makers and the ones I seen had no real issue with heat created from the built in cooling fans. Maybe in an enclosed area would offset a degree or 2? If anything (once again depending on your location as a factor on temp conditions) the added heat from the LED (which I believe is lower then HID) is a bonus in helping to regulate and keep temp conditions as close to 80 degrees as possible. I will be sure to monitor this once everything is in the works and keep you posted.

Yeah I understand that it is hard to say what is average because based on personal experience what is "normal" for you is not the same for myself. Just that our experiences are different and the needs of the people we know are too. That is cool I was just currious, I find it rather nice that there are so many helpful generous people in the community who are always eager to help and share experiences. It is in my experience very different from how many other types of communities operate which is great imho.

I am not even sure that with 7-10W diodes they would still be powerful enough for large tree grower to get the same results as they are used to with HID, I came across a company who you could them money to create your own LED's, which was rather expensive. I can't remember if they had 4 or 5W (or so they claimed) diodes available, but really 3W single chip should be more then enough for most peoples needs. I am all for cheeper I mean hey I just went through 9k and I am not even finished with all the odds and ends (tents just came in yay!!!)

No worries about taking things the wrong way on my part, I am rather enjoying our conversation as it is a great learning process on my end to say the least. Not to nit pick, but Stealth Grow and Grow Stealth are two different companies, Grow Stealth is the one I will be using, and will be the first one I rip appart if I findout I was ripped off or lied to about performance. Lol I have taken my time and made the best choice that suited my needs, I was even lucky enough to get some savings on the cost of my lights once I complete a journal which is a nice bonus. Other then that I personally have no ties to them other then being a happy customer. Prosource is a widely known company and has many useful products, however they just didn't fit my needs. I had many better offers and deals presented to me by other companies along my journey into LED lighting, however even though it was for higher dollar amounts at the end result of savings, I personally made the choice to go with quality rather then cost savings.

Water cooled vrs LED minor temp difference if any, speaking personally from what I have seen, but added longterm cost on cooling. Air vrs LED you can notice it more then water cooled, but once again added longterm cost to cool. Non-cooled hood, no question LEDs hands down are way better. The burn I was talking about wasn't from the nuet burn however, just for fun stick a branch up close to a non cooled hood and see what happens, heatburn I guess you can call it. If anything your more at risk of getting nuet burn from LED's due to over nueting and watering, also root rot can be an issue.

When growing with mybrand of LED lights they suggest to keep temps down to 80 degree and humidity to 60-75% for indoors. If your using co2 then max of 88 degrees.

Not sure if you saw this but you might find this helpful,

Water, Soil, and Over-Fertilization
LEARN HOW TO PREVENT THE MOST COMMON MISTAKES WHEN USING LED FOR THE FIRST TIME


Overwatering is the #1 cause of failure for first-time LED gardeners in soil. Unlike HID, LED Grow Lights emit much less radiant heat which evaporates the water in your soil much less rapidly. Monitor your soil frequently, checking at least an inch beneath the surface for moisture. You want to wait until the soil is nearly completely dry prior to your next watering to avoid over-watering your plants.



The water you use for watering (whether hydroponic or soil) should also be pH balanced so the nutrients you are feeding your plants can be properly absorbed. If a solution is too acidic of too basic it can block the uptake of nutrients which will cause deficiencies to appear in your plants. The proper pH for soil is 6.0-6.5, while the pH for hydro is 5.6-6.3



The saying "Less is more" also applies to your nutrient regimen. Nutrient manufacturers make multiple recommendations to their customers for standard or "aggressive" feeding. Most first-timers naturally think "bigger is better" and begin pumping their plants full of nutrients, but this can actually harm or kill them them. Plants that receive too high a concentration of nutrients will exhibit stress symptoms like yellowing of the leaves, wilting, or browning of roots. If you see any of these signs make sure to dial back your nutrients to avoid killing your plants. As a rule of thumb we recommend using 1/2 the amount listed for most manufacturer's "aggressive feeding" schedule. In this way you can always experiment with adding more nutrients slowly to see how your plants react, but you don't start off by harming your plants.

Have some building to do and work is soon, so I will pop back in later tonight or tomorrow to reply. Have a good day all.

I'm not sure what part is leaking, all of my ballasts are magnetic, not digital, but it sounds like the power transformer. I've never opened my ballasts up. That said, Lumatek ballasts have a pretty good warranty so if they're not very old, your friends should contact Lumatek.

Yeah, exactly, all sites have sales and marking info and some fudge their numbers/stats/specs more than others. Stealth grow claims (or implies) that they're the only LED that can flower and prosource makes a similar claim. for me, it's not a matter of whether or not a plant will flower, it's how well the plant will flower.

Unfortunately, every LED grow I've ever seen has had issues that I attribute to lighting. Internodal stretch being the biggest and most obvious and flower density being another. If you know about botany or have enough experience with medical grows using different lighting then I probably don't need to explain what those are. I'll gladly go into more detail if needed. I understand the science of lumens, par and micromoles, I just dispute the claims...or implications, as you've pointed out. Regardless, most, if not all, LED manufactures claim or imply that their (smaller than 1000w) light is equal to a 1000w light but none of them will cover the same area with the same results.

I know people that use less than 50w/sqf with HID too and, when they do, they start exhibiting some of the same problems that I see with LED grows that I mentioned above. The generic rule is really a guideline not a law. The point is, as long as you can deal with the heat (and there are plenty of ways to do that now) you can see better results with more than 50w/sqf but once you start going much below that your quality will certainly suffer. This really only matters to people that want or need the very best medicine they can get. My first indoor grows were under incandescent lights and I don't need to tell anyone what kind of crappy grow those were. Even fluorescent is better than that and that really isn't saying much either. You're better off growing in a window with sunlight than incandescent. Needless to say fluorescent lights were better but it wasn't until HID lights became more popular that I really felt indoor grows were worth anything. Now, as far as I'm concerned, I can get better end results with HID than I can with the Sun, I just can't grow them as big.

I think your veg lighting/sqf is low too and, personally, I'd go with less sqf or more lights but that's just me. IMHO, you're going to see the stretch in the end result from too little light there too. Your flower room is much closer, especially if you're leaving some room between lights so you can get in there to tend to the plants. I would run 2 1000w HPS lights in a 5'x10' but I'd be leaving a space between them so the actual growing area would be 2 4'x5'

In person I've only seen the LED lights at trade shows and in hydro stores. I've seen hundreds of videos and pictures, in multiple grow forums, for nearly a decade. The first attempts at LED grows were a joke but, of course, they have gotten better. I think you'll be surprised on how much heat they put off on you put them in your flower tent. I think you'd also be surprised on how much cooler HID lighting is if you air/water cool them too. As I've said, it's not that one LED light is "as hot" as a HID light but if you need 3/4/5/etc LED lights to cover the same area, it could be as much heat or maybe more. Either way, as long as you can deal with the heat I've never seen a LED that could grow the same end result as HID. If the average grower doesn't care about internodal stretch and "popcorn buds" then those are exactly the kind of people, imo, that think growing with fluorescents or LED is acceptable. I'm not sure what average is and I'm not looking to grow average medicine.

They do make 5w diodes but they're not quite ready for the big show. From what I know and from what I've been told, the more wattage per LED the less efficient (in power consumption aka droop) but they'll have better penetration. I'm not positive that 7 or 10w diodes would be the nudge to overtake HID but I think it'd be closer. As we've already discussed, growing styles make a big difference too. If a person put 60w/sqf of LED over a SOG grow, I think it would be as good as HID but you'd never see a ROI as compared to HID. If LED drops in price, that will help a lot but it would still depend on your needs and expectations.

I think we're talking about the same company since I've read what you've quoted from their website. Based on their specs I'd like to test grow their 600w quantum with a HPS 600w in a 3'x4' (or their 1200w with one of my 1000w in a 4'x5') and see which wins. They both cover about the same area, of course the HPS is a lot cheaper but I'd be curious if the LED would grow similar quality, even if it costs more.

I agree that water-cooling HID put almost no heat in the room, air-cooled slightly more and non-cooled a LOT. As I keep saying, however, if you need multiple lights to cover the same area as 1 HID, it has a multiplying effect and it could cancel out the heat saving compared to a single LED light. My example would be the quantum 1200w covers a 4.5x4.5 area and my 1000w HPS covers 4x5 which is about the same but the LED uses more power and it might put out as much heat as my air-cooled HPS.

The only way to *truly* settle this debate would be to put various lights in various configurations in similar tents and measure temps. Other than that I can only guess and I fully admit I could be wrong. If I'm right about temps and the 1200w quantum runs about the same temp as an air-cooled 1000w HPS then the Quantum would still use more power than the HPS light PLUS a 6" fan to cool it by about 100w. The costs of the HID solution would be cheaper too. THAT is why I say that LED prices would have to drop dramatically to compete with HID.

No doubt that you'll water with LED less, compared to a non-cooled hood, if you're not removing the heat some other way but if the inside tent temps (at soil level) and humidity are the same I doubt the water usage would be much different. 80 degrees is 80 degrees and I doubt it matters otherwise. 80 degrees with HID vs 80 with fluorescent doesn't change anything. Again, I could be wrong on the LED but I don't see why. The PH difference for hydro vs soil is the same no matter which light you use too. Nute-burn related to age/stage of plants is common no matter whether you use hydro/soil/led/HID, as they suggest, if you experience nute-burn, flush and adjust your nutrients.

I'm out for the night too, I think I'm coming down with something. Great debating with you again, I think we agree on most of it and the parts we disagree on are just a matter of personal choice/tastes. Good, clean fun...

Yeah that is a good idea I will pass that along to them about contacting lumatek.

That was the point with regrads to growstealth, when they mentioned that HID lighting (at 12" away) is about 2000 micromoles which rivals the sun, that with HID you can grow just as well indoors if not better then leaving your plant outside in the sun.

They didn't say that they were the only LED company that you can bloom your plants with, however that they are the only LED lighting company that is focused on incorperating "green" lighting during the bloom phase, most people would jump and say along the lines of "why use green light, it is not needed and has no effect", however that is not accurate. Nasa has released reports of how you can increase the yield and shorten the bloom phase by upwards of 30% of both by incorporating green light along with the red and blue. During the bllom phase the green light has been proven to help with the plants ability to absorb the red and blue light.

I am by no means an expert when it comes to botany so any information you feel is related to our conversation, (which all of it really would be for educational purposes) feel free to share. Total side note, but what I love about this site the most is that even though we may have different outlooks on certain issues, people here are always looking for common ground that they can agree on, when the other person in the conversation makes an error, the other isn't jumping down their throat in an effort to somehow use that error to disprove everything else that they have said and insult them because they are either unaware of some information or do not agree with their POV.

Yeah in the 5 X 10 I will have them hung across in the center, one to the left of center in the 5 X 5 (maybe around the 2.5 of 10 foot area), one in the center (5 foot of 10), and right of center (7.5 of 10). I plan to have only 30 plants in the bloom, 32 in the veg due to 2 mother plants. If money wasn't a factor now then I would spring for an extra 300W in the 4 by 8, however with regular rotation of the plants and with knowing how other 300W LEDs have performed in 4 X 4 spaces I am not expecting it to be much of an issue.

Cycle will be 3 weeks propagation, 5 weeks veg, and 8 weeks bloom.

Using my set up as an example, and comparing HID to LED and wattage expense. For the two tents I would need 2 1000W HPS lights and 2 400W MH lights. 3 600W LED and 2 300W LED in the same area. Including 100W for cooling HID on the HPS only, is a total of 3000W per hour on HID compared to only 2130 with LED. That is a savings of 870W per hour and over time (weeks, months, years) that will add up to huge savings. Sure you can aircool or water cool HID lighting to help control heat issues, however that is extra wattage out of your pocket book.

When it comes to LED, my temp that I should be operating in my tent is 80 degrees, I will be actually looking forward to the LED lights creating some temp increase in my tent so that I will not have to increase my heat or run some heaters inside.

Lol I have a feeling that you have just met your first one (LED grower who can achieve the same results or better then HID), but we will have actual photo and video to prove it and also have to wait for the end results, still about two weeks away from construction completion. However we know that stats of a grower growing the exact same strain in the exact same environment and conditions. Their best result was 28 Oz off 10 plants. They always stay below 15 plants, this is growing under a 400W MH and bloom under the 1000W HPS, results vary due to time of year and also pest control issues that may come up. Usually they are between 1.25-1.5ish Oz per plant, same cycle of 3,5,8weeks.

I am not sure if you have ever had Blueberry (real actual blueberry), nice hybrid 80/20 I believe. Won two cups. It is really high quality medicine. The afgan mazar, 100% indica. 1st cycle so not sure what the quality is yet, but will findout soon enough.

There are two different companies, grow stealth and stealth grow. Grow stealth is the one I purchased my lights from. Grow stealth does not currently offer 900W or 1200W lights on their website, price is listed as TBD. They are under development.

Stealth Grow on the other hand has the lights your speaking of, looking at their 600W veg light which has an actual power draw of 380W, claims that they have a coverage area of 4 X 6 and 2W high power LED chips, I have many issues with a misleading spec list such as this companies.

First off if they were running a true 600W LED lighting system then the actual power draw would be much closer to 500-600W. Right off the bat you can tell that they are using atleast 2W-2diodes chips. That is going to effect you light intensity greatly. Also if their coverage area is correct (which I doubt it is) then you know that they are using 120 degree lens instead of 90 degree or 60 degree (60 degree is actually worse imho then 120). 60 degree lens are only useful in very limited growing needs if any at all.

Their cost of the light is $1,499.00 which is rather high too. Also it appears that they are only running with a Tri-band of lighting. I would imagine that personally for me in my conditions, I would be far better suited with 1 300W veg light from grow stealth, gs 300, which operates on single chip 3W LED lights and have a 5 band spectrum for a cost of only $649.00. The lens on the GS products are 90 degrees which makes for a smaller coverage area but more direct light and higher intensity.

Little things like these for which I have just pointed out are reasons why I am annoyed with certain companies who make wild claims, sell inferior products, and rip off their customers. As Donnie from grow stealth put it best, they use the lie cheat and steal method of selling their products (speaking of competitors).

If you are serious about running some actual tests SME just let me know and I will put you in touch with the right company so you can get a proper testing set up, that will have fair conditions for both the LED lights and HID lights. If you are even willing to do a journal online the lower cost of Grow Stealths better quality lights (compared to other LED lighting companies) could even be reduced more. I am sure with all your experience and contacts he would be very interested in having a conversation.

Once I have some data from when I am all set up I will be better able to give exact figures as to how much less or more nuets I am using compared to over 3 years under HID, using my fellow growers stats as a comparison. I will make a believer out of you yet SME

Not sure about the temp running heat of the 1200W stealth grow product as they lie cheat and steal from the community so I do not care to even consider their products.

I know my fellow grower was running his HID growing conditions much higher then 80 degrees, I am not exactly sure what his temp was so once I speak with them I will let you know for sure.

I wasn't speaking of nute-burn, but of damage to the upper part of the plants when you have an uncooled MH or HPS light and the plant too close to the bulb. Myself I will be running an exhaust fan to help control odor issues, 6' with a charcol filter. Osilating fan inside the tent, but I am not expecting to need an intake fan, as the 6' fan sould have more then enough power to suck in air as I am expelling it.

Have to run to work, let me know if your interested in a test and I will get you hooked up as best as I can

I've seen a lot of LED companies make a lot of claims, Let's see what the results are, I'm still guessing you need more light, especially in your veg tent, but we'll have to see. I'd also suggest not going for 5 weeks veg or they'll get too tall for the LED to handle well. I wouldn't go beyond 3 weeks veg with LED, but that's me.

I mentioned internodal stretch and density, let me explain those for you. Internodal stretch is the space between branches (aka nodes) looking at the pictures of your Mazar, under the HPS you'll notice that the nodes are pretty close together. With lower than optimal lighting/sqf that space gets stretched out creating plants that are taller that they should be. It's better, for example, to have 6 nodes per foot than 4, due to too much stretch. I'm not saying 6 or 4 is the magic number, that really depends on genetics and lighting but the better the lighting the less stretch. Density is related to the actual flowers (buds), again, the better the lighting, the more dense and tightly packed each flower is. To make a comparison, I'd prefer flowers that dense, like fruitcake, rather than flowers that are light and airy like popcorn. Many growers call the less dense flowers "popcorn buds." So, when lighting is not sufficient, either in area, penetration or intensity, the flowers will be looser, especially the flowers on the lower branches.

Again that's why, imho, a 1000w HPS beats everything out there....so far. It has the intensity/penetration to flower taller plants compared to other lights and it covers a large area.

We certainly would have different setups in the same tents. I'd put 3x600w HPS in the veg tent and I'd put 2x1000w HPS in the flower tent (with a 2' path in the center for working) and, yes, I'd need about 100w, for each tent, for cooling the hoods. Technically, I'd use a smaller veg tent, personally. Maybe 4x4 but tastes vary.

I've seen some LED lights going up to 11 band/spectrum. I think that's overkill for LED. Since you have a few years of HID growing under your belt, I'm sure you'll see a difference, assuming you had enough HID lighting during those other grows. I doubt I'd change my mind about LED unless I did my own grow tests. I do think LED could be good for mother/clones/veg but I still don't see it replacing HID for flowering and the prices will still need to come down. Too much stretch and not enough density.

Personally, I use/recommend 78-80 for lights on temps at the canopy and up to 90 if using co2. Slightly cooler during lights off, of course.

Yes, I've seen plenty of plants burnt when people don't raise their hoods enough.

I'm looking forward to seeing how things progress though, I hope you get great results...