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[GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

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548 posts • Page 46 of 55 • 1 ... 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49 ... 55

Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby FCGFrank » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:20 pm

SisterMaryElephant wrote:It depends, the top-shelf meds are always cured but there is no curing disclosure at the dispensaries here. If it's harsh (uncured) or wet they'll get paid much less or maybe even rejected. You could always test different curing methods on that ounce. none/short/water/slow... ;)


I was under the impression dispensaries grew their own supply and sold their own stock. Some dispensaries buy from 3rd party growers and resell that?

Health Canada released some information pertaining to their commercial licensing. It seems they want to encourage small businesses over a few very large operations, but they are asking for quite a bit of quality assurance, including analysis of insecticide/pestiticide content as well as the usual cannabinoid levels. Nothing about curing, but they the product has to be "dry" (though there is no definition of what dry is).

If a customer walks in a dispensary and the available stocks come from all over, how do dispensaries insure quality?

Health Canada is forcing future commercial licensees to designate a QA person that will inspect any stock and clear it for selling.

if anything, if *I* was selling my own stock, I'd definitely charge more for stuff that's been cured 3 weeks than stock that hasn't even finished drying yet.
FCGFrank
 
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Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby SisterMaryElephant » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:26 pm

Yes, here in California, some dispensaries buy from "vendors" for resale.

Some only do visual/smoke tests some do lab tests on new vendors but it's not regulated like that.

Disclaimer:
I still use HID and I'm NOT an LED expert. All of my LED knowledge is from other parties or research so I can't say from first hand experience one way or another. I also run a medical grow consulting business in SoCal.
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Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby FCGFrank » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:48 am

SME, you got any experience with growing strains like Cannatonic or Harlequin?
FCGFrank
 
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Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby SisterMaryElephant » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:51 am

Nope...

Disclaimer:
I still use HID and I'm NOT an LED expert. All of my LED knowledge is from other parties or research so I can't say from first hand experience one way or another. I also run a medical grow consulting business in SoCal.
SisterMaryElephant
 
Posts: 2633
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Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby FCGFrank » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:43 am

Day 106-54

Draining the res today, will start using Overdrive, we'll see if it helps.

Yestersday I defoliated the canopy a little... I figured with 3 weeks left, removing any fan leaves that casts shade on buds should be removed since the penetration really sucks. On the left side of the canopy the branches grew taller than the right side. Some stems are 16 inches from the scrog to the tip, and the fan leaves prevented light from reaching the bottom part of these branches. I figured what little growth lost occurs from the loss of a fan leaf will be recouped by having more light.

About 3 weeks to go to harvest... finally!

Image

Image

You can see the bud growing sideways in the bottom left corner of the first picture. This is the one with lots of brown pistils. Some trich are already amber colored.

I'm really sad about the nute burn. I suppose expecting a first grow to go flawlessly was a bit much to ask.
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Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby SisterMaryElephant » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:48 am

Personally, I prefer not to trim healthy leaves:

(from the old Overgrow FAQ)
HOW DO FAN LEAVES FUNCTION
The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances. Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant).

Fan leaves account for the greatest area for the reception of photons on a plant, thus they account for the majority of photosynthesis which occurs within a plant. Cells in the plant's leaves, called chloroplasts, contain a green pigment called chlorophyll which interacts with sunlight to split the water in the plant into its basic components. Leaves only absorb about 15% of the solar energy that hits them, the other 85% passes through-- but they reflect all the green light, which means it looks darker below the leaf to a human than it does to the plant because our eyes are most sensitive to the green spectrum (Shipperke, 03.15.2002).

Photosynthesis occurs in all green parts of plants. The process has two stages, the light reactions and the Calvin cycle, that convert water and carbon dioxide into sugar and oxygen. These sugars are later used to power all the processes in the plant, including the synthesis of THC and other cannabinoids (Shipperke, 04.02.2002; Ca, 03.13.2002). Fan leaves possess the greatest number of stomata, which are small pores or valves on the underside of the leaf which water vapor and carbon dioxide diffuse during transpiration and photosynthesis (carbon fixation). Carbon dioxide first enters the leaf through the stomata and combines with the stored energy in the chloroplasts through a chemical reaction (the Calvin cycle) to produce a simple sugar. This sugar is unloaded into the tissues and transported through tubes in the leaf to supply the synthesized food to other plant parts such as growing or respiring tissues like young leaves, roots, and flowers of the plant. meristems (UK Tricky Knome, 03.14.2002).

Removal of fan leaves will not only slow growth, but it will also hinder the plants ability to rid itself of toxic gases, and also hinder the regulation of the plants temperature via stomata. Changes in the plants chemical metabolism caused by fan leave removal causes the plant to work overtime to rid ‘toxins’ with less leaves, as a result the pant may allocate more growth hormones into growing more leaves to make up for what has been lost(Equator, 03.15.2002). Removing large amounts of fan leaves may also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic imbalance.

There is a relationship regarding the amount of carbohydrates a leaf produces and CO2 intake relative to outside forces. When you have a situation whereby the leaf is no longer productive for the plant for whatever reason that may be - low light, old age, disease, insect attack etc, the plant will discard it. (Thunderbunny as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002.

Plants have two different kinds of vessels in their stems to move stuff around, xylem and phloem. Xylem runs from the roots up the stem carrying water and nutrients. Phloem runs both up and down to move sugars hormones, proteins, etc but mostly sugars. Each part of the plant can be either a sugar source or a sugar sink (Shipperke, 03.15.2002). Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). Granted that the flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on). Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers. Sources give photosynthate to sinks in closest proximity. Upper leaves bring sucrose to shoot apical meristem and young leaves while lower leaves bring goodies to roots (UK Tricky Knome, 03.17.2002). Remove the source and the sink will be affected (Diels Alder, 03.15.2002).

The leaves at the top of a plant tend to supply the top growing shoots. The leaves at the bottom of the plant tend to supply the roots. The middle leaves can go either way as the demand changes. During flowering and fruiting, only the very bottom leaves supply the roots and the rest of the leaves try to get as much energy as possible to the flowers of fruits. For this reason, the more leaves are unshaded and in good light, the more chance the plant has of creating extra storage of energy that will ultimately go into yield (Leaf, 03.13.2002). However Jeast (03.13.02) believes that the rich green leaves emerging from the bud are a sufficient energy source of solar energy for the plant's floral development. Therefore the old fan leaves are once again rendered useless and only drain energy from the developing part of the plant (Jeast, 03.13.02).

Fan leaves store mobile nutrients, these stored nutrients are essential in the later stages of flowering. When flushing a plant the fan leaves will lose their color quickly. This is because the nutrients are being mobilized to the atypical meristem (grow tip, bud site). Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development (Ca, 13.03.2002). Fan leaves therefore serve as a nutrient deficiency buffer zone for the plant (Higstar, 03.13.2002).
Nutrient burn usually causes bottom leaves begin to die however DaGnome (03.15.2002) observed that if you do not remove the leaves then they will absorb damage as premature removal generally results in more leaf loss. However if growing hydroponically under ideal conditions it could be argued that fan leaves serve as a nutrient buffer is a moot point.

Disclaimer:
I still use HID and I'm NOT an LED expert. All of my LED knowledge is from other parties or research so I can't say from first hand experience one way or another. I also run a medical grow consulting business in SoCal.
SisterMaryElephant
 
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Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby FCGFrank » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:09 am

SisterMaryElephant wrote:Personally, I prefer not to trim healthy leaves:

(from the old Overgrow FAQ)
HOW DO FAN LEAVES FUNCTION

The leaves at the top of a plant tend to supply the top growing shoots. The leaves at the bottom of the plant tend to supply the roots. The middle leaves can go either way as the demand changes. During flowering and fruiting, only the very bottom leaves supply the roots and the rest of the leaves try to get as much energy as possible to the flowers of fruits. For this reason, the more leaves are unshaded and in good light, the more chance the plant has of creating extra storage of energy that will ultimately go into yield (Leaf, 03.13.2002). However Jeast (03.13.02) believes that the rich green leaves emerging from the bud are a sufficient energy source of solar energy for the plant's floral development. Therefore the old fan leaves are once again rendered useless and only drain energy from the developing part of the plant (Jeast, 03.13.02).


So some scientists believe they're useless, some believe they help?

I wonder if there is news on that front in the scientific literature. I'll look around.
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Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby SisterMaryElephant » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:06 pm

More importantly, some say that trimming them can be harmful.
Removal of fan leaves will not only slow growth, but it will also hinder the plants ability to rid itself of toxic gases, and also hinder the regulation of the plants temperature via stomata. Changes in the plants chemical metabolism caused by fan leave removal causes the plant to work overtime to rid ‘toxins’ with less leaves, as a result the pant may allocate more growth hormones into growing more leaves to make up for what has been lost(Equator, 03.15.2002). Removing large amounts of fan leaves may also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic imbalance.


I see the logic in the different opinions, I've just settled on one of them, for the most part. That's one of the things that I love about growing, there is no one "right way" which is why I said that's my personal preference. :D

Disclaimer:
I still use HID and I'm NOT an LED expert. All of my LED knowledge is from other parties or research so I can't say from first hand experience one way or another. I also run a medical grow consulting business in SoCal.
SisterMaryElephant
 
Posts: 2633
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:05 pm

Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby FCGFrank » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:47 pm

The question then becomes, what does the most damage or impacts yield the most? A lack of light which results in slower (or lack of) photosynthesis due to the shading, or the loss of source tissues which results in hungry sinks unable to perform correctly?

Some "defiolaters" are very vocal about the technique. I've read about grows and saw pictures of canopies in which ALL fan leaves were removed, and the buds still continued to grow.
Either Diels Alder and cie are right, or Jeast is, or there's a middle ground.

Logically speaking though, on pure biochemical grounds, I'd assume a bud growing in shade would be impacted more than a bud growing under direct light exposure but with a fan leaf or two missing. It's a quantitative question and I'm certain these parameters are measurable in a lab, so perhaps someone did that experiment.

It's like the logic people apply to lolipopping... "since the leaves under the canopy won't produce buds or get much light anyway, why waste plant energy on growing that part of the plant and just cut it... plus, the airflow is enhanced." It's a logical assumption, but it's entirely possible the plant's biology is aware enough not to waste energy there anyway and simply uses those leaves as storage without impacting yield whatsoever.

Now that I think of it, I'm not even sure how one would calculate the phosynthesis rate of a plant. It's doable since I've seen graphs, but how do they calculate it? Do you know? It'd be the only way to know for sure whether defoliation/lolipopping helps or does damage instead.

Another experiment for the future :D
FCGFrank
 
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Re: [GFP] Double SS400W Grow Journal

Postby SisterMaryElephant » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:10 pm

If the plant becomes so stressed from the defoliation that it changes sex and becomes hermaphroditic then that would be the biggest impact. Some even suggest that a light mover is a better option than defoliating.

Defoliators wouldn't know what the results "would have been" had they not defoliated and those of us that don't have no idea what the results would have been had we tried it...in any number of ways and to any number of extremes.

I'm sure people have tried it in various ways. Of course there are so many factors to consider that thorough testing is/would be very difficult if not impossible.

Disclaimer:
I still use HID and I'm NOT an LED expert. All of my LED knowledge is from other parties or research so I can't say from first hand experience one way or another. I also run a medical grow consulting business in SoCal.
SisterMaryElephant
 
Posts: 2633
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:05 pm

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