My comparison is not only my own experience, but the input from other (hid) growers.

One, replaces the HPS every other grow and uses the same Lumatek ballast I used (adjustable, "super Lumens" switch on) as he has found his bulbs losing spectrum.

The most important thing for me is quality over quantity.

I am not interested in growing a bunch of mediocre stuff.

I don't think your comparison is "fair" as the 1kw HID draws more power then an 800.

I found the current draw was the same as my 600w, but the light output was greater with the 800 and the spread over the canopy was more even.

My comparison is based on my own HID experience, a lot of research and thousands of grow journals for HID and dozens/hundreds for LED.

As I said, there is some debate, I know people that replace them yearly, I replace them every 6 months. I now some people, like your friend, that change them every other grow. While they do lose strength over time, I've never noticed a difference in yield nor quality from a fresh bulb vs a 6 month old bulb. YMMV...

I agree quality trumps quantity, to an extent anyway. That said, not enough light *will* impact both. No doubt about it. I've intentionally grown lower yielding genetics for a desired trait or quality.

Neither am I, which is why I don't skimp on w/sqft or penetration power. I believe that w/sqft is the key to quality and therefore quantity. CLW is one of the few companies that suggests a grow area that equals 40w/sqft for the SS series but I think people will find that 50+w/sqft (and we have another grower testing 60+w/sqft) will grow better quality and quantity although it will cover a smaller area. Assuming that there aren't other problems that pop up of course.

I'm not sure why that's not fair; sure, it does draw more power but it also covers more area, yields more, penetrates better and is a lot cheaper. It doesn't take much more yield to pay for the extra electricity. If you're saying that a more accurate comparison for yield/quality is a 600w HPS to a SS800w, I'd agree but virtually all manufacturers and new LED users try to claim that their much smaller lights are equal to a larger HID. That's a myth and I use the word myth just to give the benefit of doubt. I've seen ranges of 300w-700w that claim outright or imply that they are equal to a 1000w HID. Usually based on a cherry picked measurement like micromoles at a certain distance...not based on results.

I can't speak to your specific even or uneven canopy coverage, there are dozens of shapes of hoods. I'm not sure how you determined that the light output was more. Regardless, if LED was "better" than HID it should be able to beat HPS in yield and quality but it doesn't. Subjective results don't really count much so saying that a certain LED grow felt more potent, for example, doesn't mean that it was more potent but a lab test might. The fact is HID growers with well tuned systems frequently go over 1g/w. So far, LED has only gotten close that. If you want to claim that a SS800 is equal or better than a 600w HID then I need to see results that back that up to believe it. If your .67g/w LED grow is better than your 600w HPS grows, either it's the genetics you've picked or the HID side needs some tweaking because I KNOW, for a fact, that the HID is capable of more than that. Based on what I've seen so far, I'd say that the SS800 is almost equal to a 600w HPS. Very close but not quite.

.67g/w isn't bad, I just think you *will* do better with the SS800 next time and I think that a HID could beat it too. The only way to more accurately compare a 600w HID to a SS800 would be a side-by-side with the same tents in the same room, the same clones from the same mother, using the same hydroponics system or soil, sharing the same nutrients with same environmental settings, etc... You could probably never get it 100% the same, on both sides, but if you got it close enough then the main difference should be the light. The point is not that LED lights are bad, the point is that it's too expensive for what it produces and that no LED grows here, so far, have even hit the 1g/w mark which indicates that they can't quite keep up with HID. HID growers look at 1g/w as a well tuned grow but a super tuned system will produce even more. I think that the SS series will hit the 1g/w mark eventually but I can't picture it going much over that with current technology.

There *will* be LED advances, in the future, that will make LED surpass HID...but not today.

I can understand your concerns, but you are looking at it from a commercial point of view.

I am a hobbyist, "closet grower" with a 6 plant area.

As for ROI, I use the quality/yield/hrs rate rather then just yield/hrs.

As for sq/ft coverage, spectrum and continuity of same are also important.

Also, I grew this crop straight from clone to bloom (no veg cycle).

As for keeping everything uniform, I did, water/nutes/enclosure/strain.

There were a couple of setbacks (venting and a fogger failure) also.

The results were worth it all though as comparatively, the 800 beat the Lumatek 600w bulb/ballast/cooltube I was previously using.

Yield was not that far off, but the quality was.

The LED was superior.

Sorry but "I like it better" is rather subjective not objective. I'm a bit confused. I understand that you feel that the flavor and potentcy quality is better this time, even with the early environmental issues that you had but "yield was not that far off?" Which yielded more and by how much? Maybe I'm brain-locking on something here (damn morphine) but I've been going by the assumption that you got about .67g/w on LED and that was better than you got on the HPS grows before.

It doesn't matter if you're a commercial grower or a hobby grower. It doesn't change the cost or what the light produces. Commercial growers don't magically get more, per light, than hobby growers unless they just have their systems better tuned, which may be the case here. Do you run a perpetual harvest? Do you get that 12-14 ounces every 8-9 weeks or do you only grow 1-2 times per year? Since you're growing from clone I assume that you run a perpetual harvest but perhaps you just get clones, occasionally, from somebody else that runs a perpetual harvest.

I really liked your heat manifold too, thanks for sharing that with SS users. Are you going to refine the design, like a perfectionist, or are you one of those "good enough for government work" type guys.

Regardless, this is *your* grow journal and they want your opinion not mine so I'll defer to your report. I'm not arguing your opinion of the light, your opinion is your opinion. You now prefer LED to HPS and you're willing to pay more to get that, far out. I really am glad that you like the light, are you going to buy more to expand or do you have enough lights for your "system" now?

When I say "I like it better", that is not subjective.

That is comparing what I got with the latest harvest vs what I got before as I have stored inventory for comparison.

As for yield, I probably got about 4 oz less then I got with my HPS, but the improvement in the QUALITY OF THE PRODUCT made up for that, plus as I said, I went straight to bloom (no veg cycle) so the plants were shorter.

Furthermore, as I said, I gave away over 2 oz of stuff I just didn't want to trim.

I disagree it does matter if you are a commercial vs a "hobby" grower, but that is your opinion.

As a hobbyist with the means to I have no problem adapting to something that works better.

Commercial growers are usually not as flexible.

I run a perpetual harvest, but because of the screwed up schedule, my clones went apeshit so I have to get that in order.

My record for yield was just over 18 oz with a 600 watt HPS.

As for refining the design of the heat extractor, the only thing I did to improve it was to "POP" rivet it to the housing as forget relying on tape or adhesive to secure it.

(I opened the chamber and found part of it hanging in mid air, the tape let go)

I have no plans to add any more lighting as the system is running well for now.

To "like" something better doesn't necessarily make it better based on anything other than emotion and is therefore subjective. A lab test is objective, yield is objective. Feelings are subjective.

Yeah, I had to go back to earlier days, you did say that the HPS got 18 ounces not including what you gave away. Must have been my meds causing me to brain-lock. It's not the first time, it won't be the last.

18 ounces + whatever you gave away is more than .87 g/w, in fact, if you gave away 2 ounces and still had 18 left that would be about 1g/w HPS. I'm not saying that .67 LED is the end of the world, I'm not even saying that it's a reflection on your growing skills. I'm just saying that you can do better, even with the SS.

It matters not one bit; a commercial grower can adapt quickly because he probably has more money coming in to fund upgrades and therefore he has flexibility but the real reason that it doesn't matter is because a bloom light will perform the same and cost the same to run for 12 hours for anyone, hobbyist or commercial grower. All you do is turn it on/off and keep it a certain distance from the plants. If you have a full canopy without overcrowding and you have enough w/sqft you'll maximize that yield (light wise) and it doesn't matter if you get paid for the crop after or if you just save money from not having to buy elsewhere. A commercial grower sells some or all of his crop. A hobbyist grows all or part of his own consumption needs. One could say that the hobbyist makes money by not having to pay retail for his needs. Either way a commercial grower isn't going to get more watts/penetration/coverage from a light than a hobbyist so it doesn't matter.

I've already said that yield isn't everything but it is a good indicator of a light that's being used to it's fullest potential. We know that the SS800 is "capable" of nearly 1g/w (maybe a bit more) but I never said that every one will get that. I still think you'll do better next time but you could prove me wrong.

Yeah, those perpetual harvests are a bit more work but it sure maximizes the yearly harvest totals. 14 ounces every 8 weeks would be a lot. 84 ounces per year. Even with my bad back and other issues my meds equals about 2 ounces per month or 24 per year. Even if that were doubled for some patients to 48 ounces per year, a person would still have a lot to give away...or sell. Of course that's just with one small bloom light and a perpetual harvest setup so I can see why you may not need to expand for a while. Of course the downside of the perpetual harvest style is that unless you have a huge inventory and/or somebody else to keep your genetics going it's harder to shut down and take a break too. There are advantages and disadvantages to just about every growing decision we make. Give and take...

Yeah that's a lot of heat and weight for just a little duct tape; I still appreciate you sharing your design with the forum. I'm sure that others will want to vent like that too. I'm thinking that it could be made smaller but your design is simple, effective and it uses easy to find parts with very little modification.

Thanks for the compliments.

I am convinced on using LED's.

Morphine huh?

I can tell you a funny story about a morphine patch I had.

Given to me from a friend who had terminal cancer.

He told me to use it if I ever screwed myself up, but I was cleaning out a medicine cabinet and found it was near the expiration date.

Slapped that dude on my hip and had the worst sleep of my life, then proceeded to dry heave for about 20 minutes before I removed it.

I was "dinged out" for a good two days from that one.

Yes, sir, morphine is no joke. Those patches are for people that have already built up a tolerance so I bet that was a rough ride.

SisterMaryElephant wrote:Yes, sir, morphine is no joke. Those patches are for people that have already built up a tolerance so I bet that was a rough ride.

Yup.

For me, the opiate of choice is Percoden.

On grow #3 with the 800 and things are going really well.

Grow #2 went well, yield was comparable to #1 (about a pound).

Quality was awesome.

This time I did a short veg cycle (10 days) before throwing it into bloom.

Still screwing around with my clone/veg cycle but I think I have it under control.

The trick seems to be low light, low nute strength and low temp (chiller @ 67 deg F.)

Keeps the clones nice and little, but the roots are very healthy.