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Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:45 am
by AfganBerry
Lol yeah well if I am blooming at 8 weeks and veg at 3 weeks that would mean I would have to leave clones in for 5 weeks in order to keep the cycle. Then again that possible 30% reduction is bloom time might come in handy. That could be as many as 17 days shorter.

In my Veg setup I am actually hoping that 1. I don't have exactly 100% coverage, since I can just keep a steady rotation of the pots and they will still get the needed growth time and hight, and delay veg'n long enough not to interfer with the overall cycle. 2. If hight becomes too much of an issue I can always trim them down and keep the tops lopped off if need be.

Yeah I agree and know what you mean when it comes to the stretch and density, that was one main issue under the HID that my friend often experienced due to hight and space issues. We have seens more then enough of those issues with HID to be able to spot it under LED as soon/if it starts.

Yeah 11 band is way way beyond overkill, for LED. As I have said in other posts there are too many companies out there that take advantage of customers who do not know enough about LED lighting and rip them off. Too many bogus claims and misleading information.

Personally I feel that is why it is important to support the few honest and good LED grow lighting companies that are out there. The only way to advance the research and to help bring future costs down on these lights are to make sure you support a company that actually cares about the industry.

When it comes to temp, growers choices vary. The ones that I know who grow under HID normally strive for around the mid 80's to 90 without co2.

In your setup, you would still be using 5 lights, we each would be :P Only difference is that you would be using alot more wattage then I would.

Assuming that you would be leaving the 3 600W HPS veg lights on for 24 hours at a time, I will be doing the same with the 2 300W LED lights, that would be a total of 11520W a day for me and 45600W for you including the extra 2400W for your cooling.
With bloom of 12/12, that would be 13200W for me and 25200W for you, that is including the 100W per hour for an extra 1200W a day.

Daily totals of wattage, Me: 24720W, You: 70800W. Difference of 46080W a day in my favor. Even if you only ran your 600W veg for 18 hours a day that would make your veg numbers lowered to 34200W and your total daily wattage of 59400W, leaving a gap in favor of me for 34680W a day, which is more then double my total daily output.

In 30 days my max would be 741.6 KW compared to your max of 2124 KW. That adds upto huge savings. When people are charged for electricty they are not actually paying for the number of watts that they have used during the billing period, rather they are getting billed for the time it takes to deliver the needed wattage that they are using.

To help this make sence better, if you take the total daily KW I use (24.72KW) and divide that by the numbers of hours in the day your using this energy (simply converson this is not 100%) which would be 24 hours, gives you a total of 1.03. Multiply that by the number of hours your comparing your time on (in this case 1 hour). 24.72 / 24 = 1.03 * 1 = 1.03 KWh extra on average to current useage.

The other max HID lighting would be 2.95 KWh. That is just an illustration to show you how you would make the additional KWh comparisions.

Assuming that veg stage lighting is on for 24 hours and bloom is on for 12 hours a day. The way to findout the exact amount of additional KWh you will be adding to your bill would vary 12 hours of the day while your bloom is dark.

LED veg wattage is 11520W or 11.52 KW a day over 24 hours, is .48 KWh additional. HID veg wattage is 1.9 KWh additional.
Bloom Led is 13200W and 13.2 KW divide by 12 hours is 1.1KWh, HID bloom wattage is 2.1 KWh additional.

So what this means is that each day your running your set up, for 12 hours of the day LED is using an additional 1.58 KWh and .48KWh the remaining 12 hours. With HID your using 4 KWh additional for 12 hours (while bloom is on), and 1.9 KWh the remaining 12 hours (while bloom is dark).

Energy delivered by electric utilities is usually expressed and charged for in kWh. Note that the kWh is the product of power in kilowatts multiplied by time in hours; it is not kW/h. Also note that watt is the rate at which energy is flowing. For simplicity it means that a 1000 W device will consume 1 kWh in exactly 1 hour. Also a 100 W bulb will consume 1 kWh in 10 hours. Watt is like speed and kWh is like distance.

Now based on the amount I am paying for KWh here, which is $0.06620. Led would be paying an additional 0.104596 and 0.031776 a day in additional power cost. Grand total for LED is 0.136372 a day and $49.77578 a year (not including a leap year). Now with HID your paying a power cost of 0.2648 and 0.12578. Grand total a day for HID is 0.39058 and $142.5617 a year.

I pay super cheep energy costs where I live, this is still a savings of $92.78 a year, each and every year. If your cost of energy is higher then your savings are even more.

Now lets say your 3 600W HPS units with extra cost for cooling fan set up is $1000.00, bulbs ballasts whole 9 yards. The two 1000W HPS setups are an additional $1000.00. Thats a total of $2,000.00, which is more then a fair price for 5 lights. We said earlier that average cost we'd say is $75.00 per bulb. That is an additional $375 a year.

My lights (I wont say the exact amount) but it was around $4,000.00 out of pocket. Let see how close the gap is after 3, 4 and 5 years. 3 years savings is $278.34, 4 years is 371.12, and 5 years is 463.90.

HID cost after 3 years $2,750.00, 4 years 3,125.00, and 5 years 3,500.00. Meanwhile, LED cost plus savings 3 years later is $3,721.66, 4 years later is $3,628.88, and year 5 is $3,536.10.

That is just the savings light system vrs light system, if I am reducing my cost on nutes for the year and lowering my water consumption those are additional savings added on top of the cost. As long as I am able to get close to the ounces per plant that my fellow grower who is using HID lighting was getting, that means I have already paid for the upfront cost in 5 years or less. If I am getting more then their amount with HID with LED then its yet again even less.

That really is the only issue I have when you say you wish the cost of LED lights were cheeper, because it already is comparable right now, the cost that is. Soon enough we will see my results and can better answer that question. The fact of the matter is that more and more growers are making the switch from HID to LED, there must be a reason why this is happening don't you agree?

As time goes on, prices will come down even more for LED's, quality will be greater, and savings will increase even more. It is like the old saying, you have to spend money to make money. If your ballasts hold up for 15 years, for your sake I hope they do not :P That is $7,625.00 you would have spent. Compared to roughly $4,000.00 in upfront costs minus $1,391.70 in energy savings over the 15 years to be out of pocket only $2,608.30.

That is $5,016.70 more dollars in my pocket then yours.

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:26 am
by SisterMaryElephant
Sorry I've been gone a while, I was in an auto accident and I've been busy with rehab and stuff.

Unfortunately, I still disagree with your math, you're comparing apples to oranges. I think the best thing is to wait and let you see the results and compare temps, electric bills, etc. I think you'll be surprised how much heat those LED lights put out too, don't burn yourself though. ;)

I'm trying to figure out if grams per/watt is still the right method to determine efficiency or if grams per/sq foot might be better. I see issues with both, mostly involving different amounts of veg time that different growers use. If everyone used the same genetics and vegged for the same amount of time it might be easier to compare one system to another but most of us have no way to do side by side grows with different setups. I have the space but not the LED lights and I can't justify buying LED lights, based on our earlier discussions, just to do a test. If *I* were to do a comparison grow, I'd want to use a 1000w LED vs 1000w HPS, in the same amount of space and see which ended up with the best harvest. Perhaps using those "kill-a-watt" testers to measure exactly what was used in each test area for the entire grow. Then the math, in grams per/dollar, would be easier, imo. I'm in the process of designing a new hydro method so that the only variable would be the lighting and cooling costs. I'll probably even skip the CO2, at first to make it easier to figure out, assuming that I can find a loaner for the LED test. I'm also switching from DWC to something more of a hybrid system to make maintenance easier and switching from 8 weeks of veg (growing trees) to something like 1 week or less. I have to work out more details before I make a final choice.

This accident really has me behind schedule. I haven't even upgraded my service panel yet, that should have been done months ago and I'm not starting my new grow until after that is done, I need to make sure my service can handle over 10kw before I restart.

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:52 pm
by AfganBerry
Glad your ok :) Sorry to hear about the accident, only thing burning up atm is my fever :P Looks like we both are having a string of bad luck.

Sounds like you have some interesting plans upcomming. What I will base my results off is the final out put of the amount I am able to get off each plant. There are many things that can effect cycle to cycle, but over time you can estimate an average. If I am able to get close enough to the same results as with HID lighting then I know for myself it was worth it.

I am not sure if there are many 1000W LEd's out there currently on the market, if there are I would be concerned about the types of chips that they are using and the actual output of the "1000W LED" which I would imagine is not 1000W. From my research most good LED companies out there have something more along the lines of a 600W (500ish W actual output) that is more comparable to a 1000W HID light. HID however has a greater coverage area. When compared to realistic LED claims.

Atleast with my system the only thing that will have changed is the lighting source, still will be running on a 3 week prop, 5 week veg and 8 week bloom cycle.

I know through the local shop of another grower doing a 4 X 4 tray SOG with 1 LED light, their veg time was only 5 days, then normal bloom time and they had huge results. So that is promising for your idea.

Keep me posted as to how it is going, I am pretty out of it right now so I will be back in a few days when I am feeling better. Hope my lights arrive around the same time as everything is finished with construction minus the lights :)

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:00 am
by SisterMaryElephant
Yeah, I had some sort of flu bug a couple of weeks ago too, hope you feel better soon. :(

Yield per plant might be OK for testing but that depends on what you compare it too as well. For example, a 600w LED in a smaller area will certainly be better than a 400w HID in a larger area but will it keep up with a 600w HID in equal areas?

There are a number of 1000w+ LED lights out there but I assume they use 3w diodes and they are, VERY, VERY expensive.

Assuming that you had enough HID lighting for the area and and equal amount of LED lighting, it should be an interesting test. If you run less LED wattage and you get as much or more yield...per plant, you may be on to something. My worry with your setup is that with 5 weeks of veg and the decreased canopy penetration of LED, you may hurt your yield more than you think. "4 to 16" inches of penetration (based on your other thread) is more of a SOG/SCROG type scenario. Time will tell.

Get some rest, we'll be here...

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:03 pm
by AfganBerry
That is what my test will findout in due time SME. The only thing that is changing in my test compared to our previous grows is the amount of space (which is double and the number of plants which is double) and the lighting. I know the previous results growing the same plants for the same period of time under the same conditions. We have over 3 years of HID experience with the blueberry strain. The Mazar is brand new so this is the first time around to see what the results will be.

Instead of veg with a 400W MH in a 4 X 4 area there will be 2 gs300's in a 4 X 8 area with double the plants, plus 2 moms. In Bloom there is 3 gs600 pro bloom in a 5 X 10 area compared to 1 1000W HPS blub in a 5 X 5 area. So there is some additional lighting in the bloom space, however it is still less wattage then compared to two 1000W HPS. This is just to make sure that there is enough coverage when compared to HID in the same space.

I would be very concerned about what company is the maker of the 1000W+ LED lights that you have seen. The type of chip, 3W single chip vrs 3W-3chip is a huge factor, along with angle of degree of the lens are all major factors to consider. I have not personally found a company that can and is making a type of LED light with the right type of equipment in a 600W+ LED that I would spend money out of my own pocket in order to buy.

That is the one thing that you must consider first when trying to compare LED to HID, which is first comparing LED to LED.

Tell you what, why don't you think up a "dream setup" for a side by side test with HID and LED and I will throw in my two cents with regards to the best possible LED side of the set up and see how it compares?

Going to throw up some pic's then rest so will be back later.

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:08 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
I'm certainly interested in your results, I wish you were doing exactly equal HID vs LED side by side but you have to do what you have to do, I understand. At the very least you'll be able to compare the quality, density, flavor, potency, etc., of the end product since you have enough experience with the blueberry strain.

Personally, I would only use a 400w MH in a 2.5' x 3.25-ish space and I would want to put that 1000w light in a 4x5 (or maybe 4x4) space but I like a lot of light, even in veg. ;)

I could look up some of those 1000+w LEDs and post links of you want to check them out. I assume most of them use 3w single diodes or 3w arrays (not preferred) but I wouldn't pay the kind of money they want for those larger lights either way. :shock:

http://www.proledsystems.com/1200w-led-grow-light.html
400 x 3w single diodes = 2500.00

http://www.growstealthled.com/GS1200Quantum-P44C8.aspx
(coming soon)

http://ledplantgrowlights.net/products/ ... Light.html
400 x 3w single diodes = 2500.00

http://shop.ledgrowlight.com/1000W-Mast ... f1000w.htm
Appears to be single diodes but no specs. 2850.00

As I said, I'm considering new options now. I used to grow "trees" in DWC buckets under 1000W HPS for 8 weeks veg (with a lot of topping and fimming) and flowering under the same lights. I averaged 3-4 trees per light and 14-16+ounces per tree. The upside is fewer plants and clones needed with fewer huge harvests. The downside is the amount of maintenance, space and energy costs.

Now I'm thinking about going the opposite direction and trying SOG. The upside is no veg area, I'd go straight from fully rooted clones to flower (with raised lights at first) better energy use, more harvests per year and better space usage, if fully used. The downside would be smaller harvests (could also be an upside), huge demand for clones and the sheer number of plants could be bad if the grow was large enough to draw fed attention. With SOG I wouldn't be able to go over 6kw without going over suggested plant # limits. I'd need to figure out if 6kw of SOG would be enough and I think it would be. Raised SOG beds would be easier on my back than 6+ foot trees too. Another concern is genetics, my old tree genes might not be suited for SOG but I don't care about that so much, I've switched genetics a number of times over the years. Also, 1000w lights work great for trees but I wouldn't need that kind of penetration for SOG so replacement lights could be LED or 400-600w HID instead. Since I'd still want to use my 50w/sqf HID rule, I'd need more lights to cover the same area and, then, what do I do with my old lights?
6 1000w lights
10 600w lights
15 400w lights
God knows how many LED and LED is super expensive.

That's where I'm leaning right now but I still have to consider if I want to replace or adapt my DWC method or if I want to switch to some other method. I don't want to use rockwool or soil with SOG, that I know. I need to think about what's easiest on my back too, so ebb-flow, hybrid nft and modified DWC are all possible...

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:44 am
by AfganBerry
Yeah people even wanted me to run LED vrs LED against each other at the same time, however my issue with that is that I would then be left with one set of inferior LED lights that I had to pay for out of pockets at the end of the test.

The blueberry strain is better suited for taller tree growing since it is a mid to tall strain compared to the Mazar which is more of a short to mid tall plant. What is crazy about the Mazar is that it start off fast and grows taller then then tall plants. In those pic's I showed of the two blueberrys and 1 mazar, the Mazar grew from 1.5" to 19.5" in 4 weeks while the blueberrys went from 2" and 1.75" to 12.5 and 13" in the same period of time under the 400W MH light.

You are getting some pretty great results from your system, under the 400W MH and 1000W HPS, my fellow grower was having between 10-15 plants of the Blueberry. Best result was 28 oz off 10 plants. Which was 2.8 per tree, however there are times like last where there was only 22 oz off 14 plants. Which was 1.57 per plant.

That is the difference between professional growing and hobby though. I highly doubt that they would want to achieve those types of results that you have been gaining simply due to the fact that they would have issues with trying to use up all the product.

With regards to the lights, That proledsystems does not give much information about their specs, actual draw, but does mention you can have 90 or 60 degree lens. Based on them mentioning that their light is a 1200W and that they are using 400 3W high powered LEDs, I would imagine that they are using 3W-3Chip leds. Not single chip. I am not 100% sure however. You could check out ledprofessional and see what type of 3W chips epistar and bridgelux use. What concerns me about this company is that they seem to want to compete with StealthGrow.

This Led plant grow offers even less information and is using only 2W Leds compared to 1W or 3W. They are talking about lumens. Really I wouldn't even consider this company just based off their website and lack of information. When it comes to the 1W 2W and 3W LEDs. If your looking to do a SOG any of the three could work for it, however if you do not care about penitration due to super short plants (1 week or less veg cycle) you are much better suited to use a 1W LED or a 3W LED. Atleast with a 3W LED you have more options available with your growing. The 2W LED's are a balance between the other two but it is rather unnecessary.

That Last company is a joke zero specs, no way to tell what kind of diodes they are using and I wouldn't spend 1 cent with them based off their website. "Buy my snake oil, it will cure any illness you have" Pretty much sums that up.

I didn't mention grow stealth because their 900W and 1200W lights are still in development, their is no price on them but from what I have seen of these other 1200W LED's you would be much better suited to go with the GS 600. Or even speak with GS directly as I am sure they would be very interested in setting up some sort of test side by side with HID, who knows you might even be the very first person to try out the 900 or 1200 verson since you are more of a comercial grower.

Either way the GS 600 would compete as well or even better then any of those lights you have listed there based on thier very limited information they provide. That SG 1250 HO is such a rip off I am glad that you did not mention them in your list. I already ripped them apart on another post.

When it comes to the medium that you could possibally grow in, that depends on what you feel comfortable with. I have personally only had experience with soil. The mini SOG that I know of was done with 1 LED light in a 4 X 4 tray with soil. I am pretty sure the light that was used was 1 357 Mag LED light. The did a 5 day Veg then bloom. For that 1 tray it was upwards of 1/2 LB as the result. Some little plants were bigger then the others but since your packing so many in there really does not matter.

Since your having issues with your back, might be a nice option to go and have then raised off the floor quite abit. Not sure if your using tents or not, but putting up a barrier is not too much of an issue.

If it was in fact the 357 Mag (which I am 99% sure it was) it is an inferior light to even the GS300. The way I would personally look at it is like this. Decide the number of 4 X 4 trays / spaces you would have. 1 GS 600 pro-bloom would be more then enough lighting to recieve quality results. The 357 Mag is only drawing 180W or less of power so they are using 3W-3chip LEDs the Mag+ is drawing 357W of power. They have so many spectrums (11) that it is hard to know exactly what chips are what in the mag+ and mag, some maybe single while others are 3chip. Personally it is abit much and overkill.

GS has a regular 5 spectrum light and if you choose the additional pro-bloom it is now 6.

It is nice that you are in no rush, so I would suggest to wait and see how my results are going over the next few months. Gives you time to start researching more on the lights. When your more ready to start a test of your own maybe start off with a 4 X 4 area for your HID light compared to a 4 X 4 area with a LED. That way you can see the results for yourself. Also that way it is 1 light vrs 1 light. I know you like a higher rate of wpsf (watts per square foot) so you could even put 2 400W MH against 2 GS300 for example. That way you have greater coverage and it is still 2 vrs 2. However with having zero to low veg you could just bypass that with 1 gs600- probloom vrs a 1000W HPS in the 4 X 4.

Might be worth while to give grow stealth a call and just speak with them for awhile and run your ideas and questions past Donnie. I know quite abit about LED lights but Donnie has alot more knowledge then I do.

After my first test I might be heading in the very same direction that you are, I just want to see the results first from the old method so I have something to actually compare it too. I am kind of excited too see if you make the switch.

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:29 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
If (still "if") I switch to SOG, I'd probably switch to some short kush genetics. I thought about using auto's but seed costs would be horrible.

Actually my grows aren't all that great weight wise, probably based on my chosen genetics. I'm getting about .85 grams/watt per year and I know people getting more than 1.0 grams/watt per year which is considered doing very well. I've heard LED claims of 3 grams/watt but I think they base that on the "claimed HID equivalent" not the actual wattage of their systems and I have no idea if their doing SOG/SCROG or how long they veg. It's true that SCROG can increase yield (per plant) but it requires so much effort for tying and training branches that I would never bother.

I agree some of those lights are certainly lacking specs but they all "appear" to be single chips. I didn't even bother linking the lights that were obviously using arrays.

The point is still that LED prices are WAY too high for me to consider and I still don't trust the majority of coverage claims given on their websites. I would never use a 357Mag(+) in a 4x4 are, not even your 600w stealthgrow LED in a space that size although that one is much closer based on the 40wLED/sqf rule that nickgreen suggests. There is the SolarStorm 800w (not really using 800w) by California Lightworks that just meets the 40w "rule" but it's $2,000.00 and by time I bought enough of those to cover my area...well, lets just say that I could build a much better HID system including automation, cooling and have better results. Let's say I needed 12 of them to replace 6-8 1000w HIDs, that's $24,000.00 on lights alone. For $24K I could build a watercooled HID system, with AC and chillers, automatic dosing for nutrients/ph/etc and climate control with CO2. Sure, in 10-15 years it may end up more expensive than the LED lights alone but I'd have a completely automated system that does a lot of the daily work for me (you'd only have LED lights) and the increased output would more than pay for the difference...based on today's LED prices.

Even if the 600w Quantums, that you use, would cover a 4x4 area (and I'm not convinced that would be enough) they are $1200.00 each. That would be $14,400.00, just for lights, and I could still build a HID system for so much less, that would be a lot better. If I spent $600.00 per 1000w water cooled system and only needed 6-8 to cover the same area I'd only be spending $3,600.00-$4,800.00 for lights and ballasts leaving the rest to pay for a chiller, pumps, automation, bulbs, etc...

I think I've come to the conclusion that until LED prices drop to 1/3 - 1/4 of todays prices, I'm better off sticking with HID. For lower end growers with money to burn (or sponsors) and with specific needs, perhaps LED might be OK, but I can't see LED replacing HID for the higher end growers. Again, lets wait a few months and see what kind of results you get. Personally, I think your buds will be more fluffy (less dense) and you internodal stretch will be greater which will both effect total harvest and quality to some degree, at the very least, but we'll see.

The 357 magnum, over a 4x4 SOG tray is VERY hard for me to believe. That light is not a 357w light it's a 180w light (the magnum plus uses 357w) and that just doesn't add up to suggested coverages. 4x4 = 16/sqf. 180w / 16 sqf = 11.25w/sf almost 4 x less than what nickgreen suggests for LED. Even if it's a "plus" model, 357 / 16 sqf = 22.31w/sqf which is almost half of the 40wLED/sqf rule.

Your 600w quantum gets closer, at least, which really draws 550w is only 34.38w/sqf which is a little under powered for a 4x4 area too. The 800w (actually uses 620w for flowering (650w with the UV booster)) california lightworks "solarstorm" uses 160 5w single diodes and in a 4x4 area that would be 38.75w/sqf or 40.63w/sqf with the "booster" so you can see why I doubt the claim of 8 ounces off of a 180w light over a 4x4 area. MAYBE if he had 4 180w lights...maybe.

With the accident and my back now I have no choice but to wait, unless there is some major medical breakthrough or a miracle in the near future. Even if I wasn't waiting I'd be interested in your results. ;)

I think you'd have better results with LED over a SOG than you will with 5 weeks veg but only time will tell. :D

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:42 am
by AfganBerry
I am pretty sure it was the orgional 357 not the mag+, and was only the 1 light. Next time I am down at the shop I will inquire more about the situation. As I said, I do not personally know that grower or have seen their results. The shop owner is a longstanding figure in the community and trustworthy, so I am speaking off the information that he passed along to me.

From my understanding, that grower just filled the tray with soil and planted as many babies as they could fit in the tray, there was no set spacing, many were overlapping each other. Not sure if they used any additional lighting either, but I assume they didn't or didn't mention it if they did.

There are many bot programs out there for a reasonable price that if I wanted to I could have the same sort of automated freedom as you describe, however I am using soil so that changes things abit. Hydro would be much easier for automation.

Let's say that you are using 8 HID lights to cover your setup, I am using 3 gs600 Pro-Bloom to replace 2 1000W HID, so I would imagine that roughly 12 gs600's would be enough, if it is only 6 HID then I would imagine that 9 would be the number.

How much are you currently paying for electricity?

Yeah trust me I know it is a huge out of pocket expense upfront, which is why it is even more important to make sure you make the right choice when picking a LED company. It is a big gamble, soon enough we will see if it pays off. I imagine that sometime between today (wednesday) and next monday my lights will arrive :)

I have to run out for abit, get well soon SME. BBL

Re: Suggestions for a LED setup

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:44 am
by SisterMaryElephant
I think the issue is the reported yield, I'm sure it was exaggerated to you a bit. ;)

I understand SOG and usually about 1 plant per sqf in flower is about right but some people use more. The issue is that there's only 16 sqf in a 4x4 area and I already broke down the watts/sqf with the light. There's no way you're going to get quality results at 11w/sqf.

I'm not saying that soil growers can't automate, I'm saying that I could build complete HID+Hydro systems for the price of just your lights.

After doing the math it appears that with the 600w Quantums I'd need 12 to replace 6-7 1000w HIDs or about 1 1200w quantum for each to get equal area coverage. I'm not running 8kw yet, I'm just preparing to run "up to" 8kw. My usual bill for 2kw is about 400 month but that includes my normal household usage too.

I have to go to my doc appointments, hope you feel better too...