LED Grow Light Forum

Well there are a few things getting mixed up all into this one topic that really are seperate issues I feel.

The heat issue with LED compared to HID, LED has built in cooling compared to HID which needs additional source of cooling if you choose. I agree that in most cases air cooling a HID light is good enough, however having to pay for that additional source of cooling and the electricty helps to increase your ROI on the upfront cost of LED lights.

I believe that the OP spoke incorrectly when they said that you can not burn yourself on LED lighting, they should have added onto that sentence "under normal usage". I also believe that they were refering to the actual lighting which you can not burn yourself on, compared to the metal housing on top of the unit, where it is possible to burn yourself. I would imagine that most people when using the product correctly would never have a need or reason to place their hands on top of where the unit releases the heat for any extended period of time. If you were to burn yourself on a LED light unit, I would imagine that it would be due to that persons own lack of common sence, rather then an actual reason for it happening.

The link for littlegreenhouse was in fact speaking about the maximum coverage areas for growing plants, They did not have any coverage for LED however. There is two sectons of primary and secondary coverage. As we all know that with growing different types of plants and different strains your lighting and coverage will vary. However the maximum area possible will not change, meaning that you should not exceed that space regardless of which type of plant you are growing.

I have never seen any manufacturer or retailer claim that a LED does not produce any heat, of course they do. That is the reason why they have built in heat sinks and cooling fans. That quote was from someone doing a review on LED lighting. The point that they were trying to get across I believe is that unlike an uncooled HID light, with a LED if your canopy is too close to the light source you wont have the risk of scorching your plants. You will have an issue with coverage if your canopy is too close to your LED light.

I have not seen any trustworthy LED retailer who has any claims that they can cover the same area as a HID light. That is one thing that should jump out to a buyer looking to purchase a LED light. If a LED supplier claims that they can cover the same area as a HID light then that should make you very cautious. That is why it is important to make sure you understand the spec's of the unit and understand what they mean and how it will effect your grow.

For example, the degree of lens of the LED lights. The type of chips being used. 3W single chips vrs 3W-3chip.

Look at Stealth Grow for example, since you keep mentioning 1000W HPS vrs 1000W+ LED, they have a newer product called the SG 1250 HO, their actual coverage area with this light is only 4 X 4. A HID light would have a greater coverage area with a HPS 1000W. There are other issues too to consider with this 1250 HO light. The actual power draw is only 680W and there is a disclaimer that...

"*LED wattage is calculated by the number of chips multiplied by the wattage of that chip. However, this number does not represent the actual wattage draw of Stealth Grow LED light panels. In most cases the actual wattage draw is considerably less than the traditionally calculated wattage. "

So your 680W isn't even the actual draw you will recieve from the light. They also mention that they are using 2W Hi-Power LED chips with an additional disclaimer that "**Ten percent of all Stealth Grow LED light panels are comprised of 1-watt white (2700K full-spectrum) LED chips to create the perfect balance for healthy plants and a full harvest".

It appears that they are using 2W-2chips from their information provided. Based on their 4 X 4 coverage area claim and compared to their other products offered like the veg LED light that has a coverage area of 4 X 6 I would guess that on the SG 1250 HO they are atleast using 90 degree lens. This light also has a cost of $3,499.00

Like I said it is important to compare LED to LED first before you compare LED to HID. So when you compare The SG 1250 HO to a GS 600 which is a fraction of the cost at $1,149, has 3W single chips, runs at 550W, has 90 degree lens. The coverage area is 3.5" X 4". You would be much better suited to save the additional $2,350.00 and purchase the GS 600 because you will recieve extreemly similar results with these two lights if not better results from the GS600. You also will have additional savings on electricty when you compare the two, 680W minus 550W is an additional 130W less that the GS600 will atleast use compared to the SG 1250 HO.

If you put this SG 1250 HO up against a 1000W HID I would guess that the HID would win hands down, due to the fact that the SG 1250 HO is using 2W LEDs which lessen then penitration and even further if they are 2W-2Chip.

Like I said before, just because they say it is a 1000W+ LED does not in fact make it a 1000W+ LED light.

It's true that the LED cooling is "built-in" but it exhausts the hot air into the grow room where HID air (or water) cooling exhausts the hot air OUT of the grow area. So, you see, the LED cooling is only cooling the electronics inside the hood. it does nothing to remove the heat from the grow area. Also, air cooling a HID is not that expensive. For less than 200.00 and 100w, a 6" can-fan will air cool 2 x 1000w lights so you're really only paying $100.00 per light more and an extra 50w per light to remove the light heat out of your grow room.

I know the OP misspoke or was flat out wrong but, either way, "under normal usage" you wouldn't burn yourself or plants under HID either. Normal usage implies enough distance to prevent heat-burns.

I'm sure I've seen "no heat" on the web but I can't remember where right now. If I ever run across it again, I'll link it. Even then, they probably mean less heat but "less heat" is relative too. Water cooled HID claims to remove up to 93% of the light generated heat out of the grow room, so "less than what" is a fair question.

I have seen seen MANY LED sites claiming that their 300w-700w LED will cover as much as a 1000w HPS.
http://www.proledsystems.com/600w-led-grow-light.html
"If you are replacing a 1000w HPS you want this panel. We know that people claim a 300W LED can replace a 1000w HPS, but we want you to be happy with your weight and quality results. Our trials have shown that a 600w LED properly designed can achieve more grams/watt vs. HID."
If their 600w light replaces a 1000w light that covers 20/sq ft (5x4 area) with more grams per watt, I'm the Pope. Of course they don't SAY, in exact words, that the 600w produces more in the same area but they imply it. They do say that you can replace a 1000w HID with their 600w LED but when they talk about grams/watt they don't specify how many watts of HID so technically they could claim that their 600w LED produces more grams per watt than a 150w HID.

Shall I find another?

From the 357mag led site:
"•Pure Efficient Flower Producing Power. Original Magnum replaces 600w of HID with a mere power draw of 180w! New Mag+ replaces 1000w of HID with an astounding 357w actual power draw!"
180w LED vs 600w HID or 357w LED vs 1000w HID...my ass.

I think you get the point.

True, different manufactures claim different things, stealth grow's 1250HO (which Is why I didn't link their light in the other thread where we were discussing 1000w+ LEDs) they say covers a 4x4 really only uses 650 and the 800w SolarStorm only uses 620-650 in flower. I don't say the 1250HO is a 1000w LED and I don't say that the SolarStorm is an 800w light either.

So how can SOME sites claim that a 300-700 watt light can replace a 1000w HID if it can't even cover the same area? Are you magically going to be able to fit more/bigger plants in a smaller area? You admit they cant cover the same area but many LED sites claim they can do what the 1000w HID can. Even your 1200w quantum (that's coming soon) only covers 4.5x4.5 according to their own specs. So it seems that, by that admission, it takes 1200w LED to equal the coverage of 1000w HID, based on the price of the quantum 600 and the prices of other "1200w" LEDs I'm guessing the quantum 1200 will be in the $2,500.00 range too. I can get the 1000w HID and a cooling fan (which will cool 2 lights) AND 15 years worth of bulbs for $1725.00. I could even get a water cooled unit and a water pump if I have a big enough reservoir to avoid needing a chiller.

The quantum 1200 will use more power than even the air cooled HID but it costs more to cover basically the same area. So why is the LED better again?

Yeah that is true that with LED your exhausting hot air into your room, however your area already would have an exhaust fan that is moving and cycling the air through the room. In my 4 X 8 secret jardin tent a 6 inch fan is powerful enough to not only exhaust the air out of the tent but also suck new air inside through dryer vent tubing in an intake opening.

Secondly, the heat created from a LED is nowhere near the heat created from an uncooled HID light, which is why you really need to have aircooled or better. You also want to keep your temp inside around 80 degrees, so unless you live in a few select locations in North America, your going to need some additional heating, so the minor additional heat being exhausted from LED is music to my ears.

I was refering to normal usage with regards to burning yourself on a LED lighting unit. It is possible to scorch your plants with a HID lighting system, it is not possible to scorch your plants with a LED system. By system I am refering to the actual part of the unit which gives off the light, Bulb for HID and diodes for LED.

Yeah when it comes to claims out there it is very misleading. Alot of companies out there use selective wording or just outright lie to customers. That is the thing, they never said in that quote that they cover the same area as a HID. I mean I can replace my livingroom light with a plug in the wall airfreshener with a nightlight.

It all depends on what style you choose to grow with, strain has an effect, climate and season, and many other factors that come into play in which lighting source will do better then another. In this case HID vrs LED. If your growing 6 foot + tall trees then your probally better off with HID unless you want to spend a large cost upfront with LED to get the same results. If your doing a SOG LED could in many cases be just as good or sometimes better then a HID, actually in many ways it is better then HID.

That is all subjective to what each person actually cares about however. I may care about the environment and want to reduce my carbon footprint by conserving as much electricty as I can. You on the other hand may think that Al Gore is a joke, global warming is a hoax, and you could care less about saving energy. You could even be somewhere in the middle like myself, you agree with both sides somewhat, but feel that saving money (long run or short term) is just sound business and always a good idea.

What annoy's me about 357 Mag is the silly fact that their light actually works and works pretty well in many situations. It will not work as well as another LED light such as the gs600 when you compare the two, but it still is one of the better lights on the market. Problem is that the cost on the 357 Mag is way overblown. Additional problem is that they stooped to misleading customers with bogus claims and boardline lie to customers outright.

Atleast your asking all the right questions SME I think our little debate is rather helpful for anyone reading this (pat ourselves on the back) lol. Just like anything in life it is situational. It all depends on what is the most important factors to you personally in your situation. I mean if you are able to achieve the same results or for sake of arguement better results with a LED light compared to HID, yet the quality of the product is greatly reduced (taste, flavor, texture) then it still may not be worthwhile to switch from HID to LED. Just the same as if the quantity is slightly reduced along with your power consumption but the quality is just as good or better with LED then it might be worthwhile to make the switch.

Other factors come into play just with how you choose to determine if it is worthwhile or not too. Like grams per watt, grams per plant, ect.

It is not my 1200W quantum that is comming out soon, but they say in fact that the 900W and 1200W will be comming out soon. I am an independent grower, who spent months and months researching LED light systems, made the choice to use Grow Stealth's products and accept a sponsership from the company to do a journal. I turned down other companies offers (some were for much more savings then compared to the deal I have with growstealth) because I did not want inferior lights that will not meet my needs or at least come close enough to meeting the needs I have.

From the companies you linked and from ones I have looked at the gs600 is IMHO better then any of the so-called 1000W LED lights out there and cost a fracton of the cost. The gs600 has equal or better PAR then a 1000W HPS, a 1000W HID light emits roughly 2000 micromoles while a gs600 emits more then 2000 micromoles, so that is the reasoning behind the claim of why a 600W LED light can compare to a 1000W HID. It is science based off total light output from the light source and how that light is dispersion.

Those other LED companies who are lying and misleading customers I can not say what is their reasoning for their "claims". As for the cost of the 1200W LED from growstealthled.com I am not sure what price they will be charging. When you look at the majority of companies selling their 800W+ lights for $2,500-3,500.00+ when they are more comparable of a light to the gs600 which is only $1,149.00 or $1,349.00 if you pick the pro-bloom version, it is hard to say what the cost is going to be.

Other companies are selling a similar level of lighting for 2 to 3 times the price, I am not sure if those coverage areas are correct for the gs900 and gs1200 also, either way if the gs1200 is around $2,500.00 in cost that you are assuming it will be, at least you will be getting the full value for the money you are spending.

On another forum website I pointed out to many interested LED buyers who were on that website, that the websites sponsered companies were selling lesser quality lights at greatly inflated prices. By sponser I mean that those companies were paying the website admin money to have their products endourced there on that website. They were ripping off their members and not caring about it. Companies like hydrogrowLED were sponsered there. That is total fraud. For my good deed I was promptly banned from said website.

How it relates is the forum admin and I were debating about products like the 357 Mag, I said I find it outragous that your paying the money and expecting to have purchased a porsche, but when you get it home and take it for a ride you findout it is really a ford painted up to look like a porsche His reply was that he has seen a GS300 and it is no porsche more like a kia. I said to him that that might be the case and 100% correct, however at least when I made the purchase I knew that I was in fact buying a "kia" and recieved a "kia".

I have already explained how electricty and the actual billing of electricty is calculated, you are assuming that you will need a gs1200 however a gs600 can already compete with a 1000W HPS. I have already pointed out the real life cost savings and how in 5 years or less the LED has already started putting dollars back in my pocket. I live in one of the cheepest places in all of North America for electricty costs. So someone who lives in a place like California for example who is paying a much much higher rate of electricty then I am, will gain even higher savings and get a ROI even faster.

The gs1200 doesn't have any specs on actual power draw so can't realy say.

I have a little time between appointments so let's see if i can hammer out a reply before I have to go again.

It's true that, in most cases, there will need to be some other form of heat removal (not including fans for just circulation or course) In the case of an air cooled HID, you can sometimes use the HID intake to remove the heat from the room and cool the light too. That doesn't always work and sometimes you'd need a dedicated fan just for cooling the HID but I include the fan price and power consumption in my examples. On a multi-HID grow, the "fan" cost is approximately 100 per light and 50w to run it. If a person didn't need a chiller for water cooling (if they had a large enough reservoir) it would end up being cheaper in the long run to use water because the water pump would use much less than 50w per light. No matter what, regardless of what lighting, you'd still need fans, water and other things.

Nobody is disputing that LED is cooler than uncooled HID but most people do cool their HID, especially if growing in a tent so it's really more of a marketing thing. I guess I'm lucky to live in a place where not only do I NOT need extra heating, in winter, for my grow, I usually don't need much AC, in summer, either. In fact, I can divert my heat from HID lighting to living areas, in winter, to use less heat for my house too. In summer, I vent outside. YMMV...

They DO claim that the smaller lights (300-800 depending on the company) will "replace" a 1000w light and if it can't cover the same area.....it cant replace it. Let me give an example using your 600w and my 1000w. According to the website the 600w quantum covers 3.5' x 4' or 14 sqf. My 1000w HPS will cover a 4' x 5' area or 20 sqf. Using a SOG general rule of 1 plant/sqf you could put 14 plants under the 600w LED and I can put 20 plants under the HPS. The LED is 39.3w/sqf my HID is 50w/sqf, I don't believe that your light will produce as much or more than my light, with fewer plants and less sqf. I just don't believe it.

Now, in my example of the 1200w quantum (coming soon) vs the 1000w HPS, there's a chance it could match it. 20 plants each and the LED running more juice. At least the 1200w LED would cover the same area, amkingit more likely to be able to "replce" a 1000w HID.

You're right, I'm sure that the LEDs do work, it's their claims/results that I don't believe and the prosource video that I've linked before is a good example. In the video they use 180w LED for every 2 sqf or 4 180's in each 4x4 area in order to get "commercial quality results." That's another reason why I reject the idea that a single 357mag (180w) over a 4x4 tray will pop out 8 ounces in SOG. Even your 600w quantum will only cover a 3.5x4 area. I can't believe that a 180w light will adequately cover a 4x4 tray and give decent results. It will give SOME result but it wouldn't be anything for an experienced grower to brag about. That would be like me saying that I can use a single 1000w HPS to cover a 10x9 room instead of the usual 4x5. Sure, a 1000w HPS in the middle of a 9x10 room will be bright and if it's high enough it will even light the sides a little but you're not going to get good results in the end. The same goes with LED, they're not magic, you can still only cover so much space per watt and experienced LED growers are saying 40+w/sqf LED, like experienced HID growers like 50+w/sqf. LED are not going to magically allow you to put more plants per sqf in an area so a 300-800w LED, logically, is NOT going to replace a 1000w HPS.

Sure the 600w LED uses less power but it covers a smaller area and it doesn't penetrate as well either. The LED par + micromoles is just more LED marketing hype, there's no way a 600w light can replace a 1000w light, assuming that you're using the covered area fully. It's just not feasible nor logical.

I stand by my example of needing a 1200w quantum LED to cover the same area as a 1000w HPS, even if you think the 600w can compete with a 1000w HID. It cant, even according to their own website it cant. Again, their own website says the 600 will only cover 3.5x4, the 900w covers 4x4 and the 1200w cover 4.5x4.5. How do you expect a light that only covers 3.5x4 (by their own admission) to compete with one that covers 4x5? While the 1200 doesn't list the power draw, it uses the same 3w LEDs as the 600w so it's probably safe to assume that there is just more of them so it's probably double the 600's 550w draw which is 1100w. Again, don't ignore the area covered.

I know you want to believe it and I know they're sponsoring you but it just doesn't make any sense. Again, I think you've fallen for marketing hype and you expect the 600w LED light to equal the 1000w HPS light while using less power and less space but, imho, it wont.


OK, dr time again, we'll continue later and thanks for the debate. You're right, no matter who is right, it should help other in the future.

Lol ok SME the gloves are off.... Thems fighting words there

I just started using the gs300's today, will be another 5 weeks and a day until I will be using the gs600 Pro-Blooms, however with the gs300's there is no issue with heat exhausted from the LED unit. It isn't even warm to the touch, maybe in a few days there might be some increased heat, I will keep you posted on that. The simple fact is that with HID there is some additional cost about and beyond the cost of the bulbs and ballasts. Regardless if your aircooling or water cooling, there is additional costs for electricty and water about and beyond the normal costs of operating the lights compared to LED. I was actually hoping that there would be more of a heat increase from the LEDs maybe a degree or 2 but as of yet no such luck. It is still in the good range of heat so I might not have to turn up the heat in my house.

Your picking one thing that is part of the whole picture and making it out to be the most important thing and only deciding factor in the debate if a LED can replace a 1000W HID (HPS) light system. I understand that since your more of a commercial grower coverage is a very important thing, but to each grower it may or may not be the most important factor. To say that a 600W LED light can not replace a 1000W HID (HPS) light because it can not cover the exact same area is not true. What about all the personal growers out there who are working in a limited space area less then 4 X 5 feet?

Also just because your 1000W HID light is using 1000W of power each hour, does not mean that your area is recieving 50W /sft of lighting. The bulb is directing light in all directions with a HID light, not all of that light is actually able to be used by your plants. This is why when using a HID light growers normally use a reflector of some sort. To try and reflect as much of the wasted light towards the plants.

Even if it was a full 50W/SFT with a 1000W HID (HPS) compared to my 33W/SFT LED lights, how much of that light is your plants actually able to use and absorb and convert into energy for photosynthsis? I know that all 33W/SFT of my lighting is able to be used by the plant, can you say the same for your 50W/SFT?? You could but then again you would be lying.

I do not condone LED companies lying about claims or using misleading claims to sell their products. Your saying that Micromoles and PAR are just LED marketing ploys however it is science that backs up and supports it. Lumans are the actual marketing ploy and are totally meaningless to plants. It is PAR that matters when plants are involved. Micromoles is how you rate the PAR value from a light source when speaking in terms of plants. It is the only thing that matters when measuring the light intensity for plants.

Yes coverage matters, but for each grower out there based off their needs and desired results, the level of how much it matters varies.

I mentioned the fact that I am sponsered to be upfront about things with anyone who comes across this and reads this. However I am not personally bound by any agreement to say nice things about GS's products, I am not required to do anything other then send some photo's and some video every now and then to the company. Everything I do here is 100% of my own accord, in order to help others benefit from all the time and energy I have personally spent researching LED's.

I have hope that it will produce the same results or better compared to years of previous grows with HID under 40W/SFT growing conditions. During the exact same cycles and supplies if I can achieve results around 1.5-2 OZ per plant then I will have achieved that goal. Time will tell, but I remain cautiously optomistic.

There are so many things to consider when making the choice of which LED light to buy, coverage, style of grow, strain of plant, degree of lens, cost, type of chips, ect, just to name a few off the top of my head. They factors are all important and will all play a part in the success of failure of your grow, to say that one is more important then the other is just unfair and a major generalization.

Good news is that I am under way and in a matter of 13 weeks we will find out together who is eating crow

Hope to be on tomorrow night if I get a chance will be pretty busy over the next few days, see you soon.

How about "debating words," I'd rather not fight over lights.

Yeah, I'm interested in the heat too, EVERY single (large) LED light that I saw at the expo a few months ago was literally too hot to touch and I could feel the heat under them too. Not a LOT underneath but some. They weren't your brand though so...who knows.

Of course coverage matters. It's obvious that if you're only growing 4 SOG plants under a 1kw HID that you may do as well with a smaller LED but if you only had 4 SOG plants you wouldn't be using a 1kw HID nor a 600w LED neither. You spec your light to your grow area...or your grow area to your light but, either way, the grow area (and type of grow) determine how many plants you can shove in there. Perhaps 40w/sqf LED will do as well as 50w/sqf HID over a SOG but there is still the area covered to consider.

More LED hype. While there's, no doubt, some unused light and energy heat loss, it's a well established general "rule" that is PROVEN that 50+w/sqf HID is what you should shoot for. I know people that run upwards of 100w/sqf with CO2 but when you start getting below 50 results suffer too. I'm not saying that every type of light needs 50w/sqf, just HID. nickgreen, the prosource video and even your light manufacturer say 40-ish watts is the "magic" LED number but I know that 11w/sqf isn't it. Will a grow with 33w/sqf work? Of course it will, but you CAN grow with incandescents and 20w/sqf HID if you wanted too. Results will suffer but it will work. It's amazing how cannabis just seems to WANT to grow. The joke in one of the old forums was that you could grow medical MJ by candlelight, if you had to. Me, I prefer the higher end meds and if I'm going through the effort and risk to grow it, I might as well grow the best meds I can. So...those that are satisfied with mediocre results can take chances and run too little light if they want.

What I'm saying, and I've seen no evidence to the contrary, is that a 1000w light used to it's full potential cannot be replaced with a light that will not even cover the same space. If you're claiming that the the 600w LED, in a smaller area, will grow the same amount of meds that a 1000w HID, in a larger area, can then I have to call bullshit. You have 1000w HPS, prove it. Grow 20 SOG plants spaced 1 per sqf under the HID and grow 14 SOG plants under the 600w LED (14 sqf) and see for yourself. You wont get the equivalent of 6 more plants worth of weight out your 14 plants. I sure wasn't impressed with quality of the plants in the prosource video and they were using 4 x 180 per 4x4, (45w/sqf) one light over each plant. The top colas looked OK but I saw a lot of stretch and fluffy "popcorn buds" too.

Call it a challenge or a dare if it helps, do it this time or next, I'm patient. I'd do it myself if I had a LED to test with I'm just not willing to throw away that kind of money on a light I don't have confidence in. If stealth grow or california lightworks wants to loan/donate a light to do the test, I'll do it and report the results either way. I'm not afraid of being proven wrong, I just don't believe the claims. I guess it would be pretty good publicity if their light could change the mind of somebody as skeptical as I am.

Seriously, I'm afraid you've fallen for the marketing hype but I'd be happy to be proven wrong, really, I'd love to be wrong but I don't think that I am. I'm not trying to be mean or rude, I just need proof because the claims don't make sense, logically, to me.

Let's see how your new grow goes...

Lmao I stand Corrected, your right "thems deebating words (and or letters)"!!

I totally understand your points and you make many vaild points, trust me I am not under the spell of the hype. I was exactly in the same place as you were are now in when I first started researching LED's.

I laugh everytime you say my lights, I mean they are my chosen brand of lights but they are not my lights in that sence. I been running the gs300's now for over 24 hours and not even warm to the touch. My heat exhaust from my laptop is about 100X hotter then the LED unit. It's more like putting my hand to the screen of my laptop, no heat effect at all.

Since I am not using the gs600's right now (5weeks until I do give or take) I plugged them all in to make sure they worked and no issues with them, but I didn't check prolonged heat. When I go down again next time I will plug one in for an hour or so while I am down there and see if it gets hot at all.

Maybe the brands you saw in person were just really poorly crafted and had cheep and insufient amount of heat sinks?

Yes it is proven that if you want to recieve the highest possible yield results for HID 50+W/Sqf is what you should shoot for, however that doesn't mean that you can achieve good quality results of a lesser yield with less then 50+W/Sqf. I know for a fact that it is possible since for the past 3 years+ been getting those very same results, grow was 16W/Sqf and bloom was 40W/Sqf, quantity was about an average of 1.5-2 Oz per plant off that. Each and everytime the quality of Blueberry was there, taste, smell, texture. That was under HID lighting.

For me and the LED light's that we changed to, it is staying pretty darn close to those same numbers and in due time we will see what kind of results we have. Lol why do you think they call it "Weed"? The thing can grow almost anywhere in any climate.

It is not about Mediocre results, considering that I have better then best stuff available to the average person (quality wise) I find that abit insulting tbh. We don't want a huge quantity for good reason, who needs the hassle of trying to get rid of all that product? I mean all the issues that come along with your kind of weight, (30 plants at 12 Oz a plant = 22.5 LBS) every two months no thanks. I would rather sit back in my corner, grow my plants and enjoy doing it, make just enough for myself and a small select group of people and we can all sit around and laugh when someone we know tells us about this new killer bud we have to try that will blow us away (pulls out some Blueberry). In the past 3 years I have only come across 1 time where another persons random even came close to comparing.

Look at all the people out there growing in limited space, the phrase closet grower was coined for a reason, someone 5 or 10 years ago who has a space of 3 feet deep, 4 feet wide and less then 6 feet only had a choice of running HID for their limited space. Of course their coverage is going to be greater then 50W/Sqf (33.33W/Sqf on 400W MH, 83.33W/Sqf on 1000W HPS), and they didn't have much other choice to get mediocre results or better. Now they have a choice between LED and HID and it is a real choice.

Just because I am looking to recieve a yield in the range of 60-85 Oz per cycle rather then 360+ Oz like you recieve per plant, does that somehow make me less of a qualifyed grower in your eyes? Does that somehow make the quality of my product somehow less then it really is?

I haven't personally finished growing my cycle under LED lights, so I do not have any claims about what a light will or will not grow. I have hope that I have made a smart and wise choice in picking the LED's I decided to go with, that they will provide me with comparable results and quality as I have been recieving with HID. If it comes close to HID then it will personally for me, have been worth it. I will see a ROI in less then 5 years then. If I am able to produce greater amounts then what the normal average was with HID then it would have grown more then 1000W HPS. Then again you throw key little words into the mix such as "used to it's full potential".

That could mean different things to different people, maximum coverage for someone like yourself, could mean sticking as many plants under that light as I possibally can, ect. Didn't really pay too much close attention to that pro-source video with regards to the quality of the plants and their conditions. I am not a commercial grower, do not plan on being one, so not really interested in that line of issues. I take your word for it and do not doubt that there were many issues with the quality of the plants under those LED lights.

The issue with the degree of the lens is the reason for less coverage due to the fact that grow stealth wants to keep the light intensity comparable to a HID light. You could have 1W, 2W, 3W, 5W, heck you could even have 20W (someday in the future maybe) LED's all shining down on your plants, if the angle of the lens is wrong it will effect not only the actual light intensity but the coverage area as well.

If GS used 120 degree lens like many of the competition does, they could greatly increase their coverage area, enough so that it would be equal to the coverage of a HID light or greater. However the quality of the light intensity would be drastically lowered, theirfor making it unable to realistically compete with a 1000W HID. Coverage is an important thing to consider when buying any lighting system, however it is not the only or the most important factor for each and every grower when picking a lighting system.

Currently with grow stealth as the example, at 12" away from the light unit, the gs600 puts out as much light intensity as a 1000W HID. When you increase the distance by double, 24" away from the unit, the intensity is now only 1/4 of the orgional intensity. Now if you were to change the lens to 120 degree instead of the 90 degree that grow stealth uses, that would further impact the orgional light intensity amounts and further impacting those results and 24" away from light source.

Now even though you say it is LED hype, (when it really is science) that plants use the energy from certain light specs of a light source and use that energy to grow (photosynthsis, from that evil science). With HID light we all know that 100% of the light emitted from the blub does not actuall reach the plant, which is why they created a reflector. Let's use that 3Ft X 4Ft 83.33W/Sqf as an example. If we say (being generous) that 60% of that energy being emitted is actually directly reaching the plant (60% of 83.33W/sqf is 49.99W/Sqf), if we (once again being generous) say that of the reflected 40% energy (light) (33.34W/Sqf is that additional 40%) that 1/4 of it's intensity actually reaches the plant and is able to be used as energy (that would be 8.34W/Sqf).

That would make the actual wattage reaching the plants under a HID system only 58.33W/Sqf of the orgional 83.33W/Sqf. Now of that actual 58.33W/Sqf, how much of that light energy that reached the plants is actually in the proper spectrum that is able to be used by the plants and converted into energy?? Your guess is a good as mine, 60%?? (34.99W/Sqf), 50% (29.17W/Sqf), 40%?? (23.33W/Sqf). Like I said, your guess is a good as mine since you have no idea. Like I said before atleast with my LED lights I know that I am getting the full bang for my buck at 33W/Sqf and that my plants are able to absorb and process close to 100% of the light source spectrum.

You want to go based off a 4 X 5 area?? 1000W HPS is 50W/Sqf orgionally. 60% of that light directly reaching the plants is only 30W/Sqf, 1/4 of the reflected 20W/Sqf is 5W/Sqf. That would increase it to 35W/Sqf. If only 60% of that light is in the proper spectrum that would futher decrease it to 21W/Sqf of actual useable wattage from HID. Now if I am using 1 gs600 in a 4 X 5 area (which is beyond the max suggested coverage area) that would be 27.5W/Sqf and if I am using close to 100% of that light as useable energy for the plants, how is it that it is impossible for a LED to grow just as well if not better then that 1000W HID light?

Just because you know that you need to run atleast 50W/Sqf useage with HID to get the lowest level of results that you wish to obtain does not mean that your plants are actually recieving that same level of energy.

Put all the LED companies aside for a minute, there are some of the smartest people on the planet and off the planet working with new ways to develop better ways to grow plants with LED lights. They are doing the testing and scientific research already.

Using the car anology, if I go out and buy a 100% electric car, and because until the past few years, all cars and hybrids have all used gas, does that somehow make my electric car any less of a car?? Why would you try to compare MPG with your car and an electric car? Because the electric car gets 0 MPG due to the fact that it never requires or uses gas make a car that only gets 25 MPG better then it?

As I said before, watch and see what results I get, updating them every milestone. If it is comparable to what I would normally recieve with HID, then it might be worthwhile for you to consider talking to a company that you feel comfortable with and seeing just what kind of deal you can workout for yourself.

Little side note, I know in my case, due to the offer of getting some sort of discount/rebate for doing an online journal on one of the listed sponsered sites, I joined up one of them in prepration of my future business with that company and to get myself fimilar with that website and community. I noticed that there was a sponsered thread on that website.

Once I started reading on the website (420, loser, a$$ clown) the website owner was suggesting to the company owner (growstealth) to not do any kind of discounts or rebates with new members to their website. I was rather outraged by that suggestion, simply due to the fact that the entire reason why I joined that website was due to my choice to do business with that company and that company suggested that I post my journal on a website such as the numerical one I named in brackets at the start of this paragraph along with a discription of the website owner

Their reasoning for why they suggested such crap, was because "new members are a risk to lie/cheat/steal from a sponser" and that he was only looking out for the best interests of his sponsers since they are the ones who pay money to advertise on his website and the reason why cheating stealing liers such as myself were able to enjoy such a wonderful website such as the above perviously mentioned website in brackets.

Rather nice warm welcome to a great community. I spoke directly with GS and worked out my own deal, found it rather funny that the one trusted grower that that website owner suggested was the one to lie/cheat/steal from GS when they "loaned" lights to said grower and never recieved a journal or lights back.

Moral of the story, is that I wouldn't count on a company just giving away free lights to you to test out. The plus side is that since the industry is so packed with companies and the tech is so new there is alot of room to play with the numbers. However this wont be the case forever. Like I said best to speak with Donnie directly and see what he thinks of the idea and ask him what his interest is in commercial growing.

I did alot of research into LED lighting over the span of a few months, he does this everyday for a living.

Mmmmmmmm words and/or letters...

I'm not new to LED research, I've been looking at them for years, I'm just not as convinced as you are and since you repeat the marketing lingo (that I find hard to believe) it seems like you've bought into (not under the spell of) the hype. Trust is one thing but I still need proof.

Yeah, all I mean by "your lights" is that it's the brand/model that you bought and that they're your sponsor. I'm not implying that you own the company or work for them.

It could be that some of them were poorly designed but some of them seemed very "solid" too. TBH, that california lightworks solarstorm light (with 5w diodes) doesn't look like a bad light at all, it's just too damn expensive...like all LED lights. If it wasn't for the fact that ALL of the larger lights were hot, perhaps it could be chalked up to poor design. I doubt it was that, so let's see how hot your lights get after running a few hours.

Well, that's my exact point, there's "good results" and there's GREAT results. I want the latter and going from great results to good results isn't where I want to go. Sure you CAN use less and get some result, I'm looking for maximum results. If I have to pay for 1000w, I might as well get the best bang/watt .

I've said, more than once, that you used too little light, imo, both before and even now and while I'm sure you were happy with your results, I'm equally sure that you'd agree that if you had used 50w/sqf in both veg and flower that you would have had BETTER results. Right?

It certainly does want to live.

Mediocre results isn't about the quality of your equipment but even you just admitted that you used less than optimum lighting. To me that's average and "mediocre" is just that, neither good nor bad. If you had wanted "exceptional," you would have used more light/sqf. If you had used fluorescents (or candle light) you would have had "bad results." Don't be insulted, it's an accurate description.

It's not about quantity, it's about quality. You can grow small quantities and still use 50+w/sqf, you just use less sqf. That's the difference between a small "average" grow and a small "great" grow. As I said before, you plan the area around the light or the light around the area and then you shove as many plants in the area as you can based on the style of grow. If you want quantity you just use more lights and more sqf but to maintain quality you stay above the 50w/sqf HID "rule." Quantity can be estimated by using the .5 to 1.0 gram per watt "rule" depending on your experience, genetics and grow style, as long as you have enough light. A 1000w light should be able to pump out 500-1000 grams if not put in too large of a room. If I used a single 1000w light in a 9 x 10 room, I'd get "something" but it'd be less weight *and* less quality.

People that have limited space can still use sufficient light, they just need smaller lights than they would use if they had larger space. Again, if you have a limited space, you plan the right light for that space. It's not rocket science.

I guess we just hang out with different people....not that there's anything wrong with that. Maybe it's a geographical thing because when I have people come in from out of state, they're often amazed at the meds we get here.

You're still confusing quality with quantity and it's not the number of ounces per plant. I've never used the term "qualified" grower and I don't think in those terms. I'm certainly not a grow snob by any measurement, I don't think that if a grower grows less than X ounces per plant that they're unqualified. *All* I'm saying is that *if* you used more watts per sqf you would have "better" results and I don't think many people would argue with that. I'm not saying that if you use 49w/sqf that it's instantly crap, I'm saying that 50 is better than 40 and 40 is better than 11. Surely, you agree?

You're getting defensive, I've never said that LED lights won't grow and that the product won't be potent, I'm just saying that if you don't have enough light for an area your results will suffer. If a person has always had too little light, they may not ever notice but if you did your old grow with more w/sqf you'd certainly see an improvement and I think you'd agree with that too.

Really, I do understand lighting, that's why I don't use a single 1000w light in a 9x10 room. I know that when you move alight up it covers more area but the intensity is lower. I know LED lens angles effect the spread/intensity of the light too but it really doesn't matter, to me, if there's not enough light to begin with.

Sure, a hybrid car is still "a car" but you can't really compare a Toyota Prius to a Dodge Viper, now can you? C'mon man, I'm not saying people can't grow with LED, I'm just saying that, for me, it's too expensive for what you get...right now. There are already commercial growers growing some food crops with LED lights but OUR crop is a little different and has a different light demand than say...lettuce. Again, you have to agree. Right?

I don't have a problem with manufacturers sponsoring growers to get real world results out there, as long as the growers are upfront that they're being sponsored, as you have been upfront about it. However, I can see the other owner's point because I'm sure there are growers that would take the equipment and run and/or sell it for a quick buck and I'm sure that you've seen SOME people exaggerate their results, for whatever reasons too. Maybe they appreciate the free/cheaper equipment or maybe they just want people to think they did better than they really did or maybe they don't want to be "mean," I'm sure there are many reasons that a sponsored grower may not be...unbiased. As I said, though, as long the grower is upfront about their sponsor, *I* don't have a problem with it. If *I* were sponsored by XYZ company I'd give accurate, unbiased results even if that review wasn't favorable to the sponsor, I'm sure most growers would too. In fact that's the ONLY way I'd ever take a sponsor, they'd have to agree that sponsorship doesn't guarantee a good review, only good results/products would.

I'm not asking nor expecting *any* company to sponsor me nor loan me lights, I'm just saying I don't have the confidence in LED to buy them to test. I'm sure many companies wouldn't want to sponsor me because I'm brutally honest. They'd have to be pretty damn sure of themselves to ask me to test their stuff and I don't just mean lights.

I've been researching LED for over 5 years and they were crap back then. They are getting better but I still say that they're not ready for prime time yet. IMHO, HID is still king so LED will just have to wear the "prince" crown. That doesn't mean that LED won't someday become king, just that it's not there yet.

Really man, don't take my criticisms personally, if ANYONE doesn't agree with my opinions or advice either ignore what I say or convince me that I'm wrong. I love to be proven wrong, I learn new things that way and I'm completely open to being wrong. I don't always see wrong as bad. YMMV...

Yeah I agree 100% with the sponsership issue, like myself my discount/refund was mostly at TOP (time of purchase), the rebate I will recieve is based off me completing the deal of sending photo's and information directly to the sponser. Everything I do and say here are 100% my own accord and have nothing to do with the deal and arrangement I have in place. Never was there a mention of having to do a good review of the product even mentioned. If a company asked me to do that I would tell them to shove it, personally lol.

I just wanted to clarify those points for yhose people reading along in silence. I know you have knowledge about LED lighting systems, since you have made many vaild points and asked many good questions that people who are interested in LED lighting.

What I take exception with is that your taking one small part of the picture (LED gs600 having the equal light intensity at 12" away from canopy as a 1000W HPS (HID) based off PAR and micromoles, but because there is not the exact same coverage between the two lights that that somehow means that all the scientific data and evidence is somehow invalid.

Should LED companies used better wording when they reported this information? Sure why not. I think personally it would have been better to say that depending on your grow style and prefrences a 600W LED could be a replacment for a 1000W HID (HPS) light. That is what they really said anyway, that their LED light could replace a 1000W HID light.

Maybe for you in your situation it would not be worthwhile to do so, but that doesn't mean for every other grower out there that it wouldn't be worthwhole or possible.

Based off the website of California lightworks, looking at there postings on this site, and the unanswered questions of some of the key information I needed to make my choice for which LED company to purchase my lights with, I didn't really consider them as an option. Also, we both agree that if your aim and goal is to grow 6foot+ tall trees, LED is probally not a suitable option (at least a worthwhile option) for your desired results. I do not think that having 5W diodes would really make a difference in being able to reach that goal.

If SOG is your aim, then having 3W or 1W diodes would be more worthwhile for the money. That is pretty much standard LED concensus. I don't see how having 5W single chips would be able to create enough of a difference in the amount of yield to justify spending that extra money for it.

If your doing like I am and growing mini tree's, then if I am having major issues with penitration with my hight of the plant with 3W LED's to the point where it is hurting the amount of my YPP (yield per plant) then maybe it might be worthwhile to consider a 5W light. Then again I could just increase the w/sqf instead.

Sure I agree that the HID lighting that we used previously was in the middle range (mediocre), but that doesn't reflect the quality and level of the product that was produced. Sure if we used a 1000W MH light during grow stage instead of a 400W MH like we used we probally would have got a bigger yield at the end of the cycle, or reduced the number of plants in the space we would have increased the YPP. However that doesn't change the quality of the strain and potency of the medicine. I know this from the past 3+ years results we were achieving.

Of course LED technology still has a long way to grow (pun intended), however it has already made leaps and bounds in the past few years. Many types of lighting systems are making the change to LED (christmas tree lights, housing lights, headlights, ect), the writing is on the wall. Maybe LED is not at the level yet to replace any and all growing styles and systems when comparing to HID, however that does not mean that currently right now, that LED can not replace HID grow lighting in certain situations because it can and does.

I am not only from out of state I am from out of country Just so happens that my country is known for producing some of the best quality medicine in the world, I am not by any means trying to say that Blueberry is the best strain out there compared to every other. Rather that I have many times come across people with random product who try and tell me that "you have to try this new stuff I just got it is the best ever" yet it always pales in comparison. I have even come acorss people to have claimed that they had "Blueberry" and it's so great, only to take a wiff and laugh because it was not the real macoy.

Both my strains have won multi cups and are known for being higher end quality. It is a rather nice feeling to toss people like that a joint and tell them to "try this stuff" and see their reaction. I haven't had a chance to see how good the Mazar is yet, but I have high hopes based off what it is reported to be like. Figured would be a nice change of pace from the mixed hybrid effects of blueberry. Many people rather enjoy the body stone of indica, so we will see soon enough.

I think that we both agree that there are many many more small time home grown closet growers out there then big time commercial grow operations. Which why it makes sence that LED companies would first want to appeal to the larger group of the pool of growers out there. That gives them a chance to work out the bugs, test their products and get some research done in order to collect feedback to continue to develop their technology and meet the needs of their consumers.

Then while they have been able to meet those needs turn their attention to commercial growers needs. Since I think we also agree that both our needs are very different. That is why I went with the exact setup that I currently have, which is as comparable as it can possibally be to the old HID lighting that we were using, the LED is slightly less then the HID. Now if I am able to recieve comparable results then I know that not only is it possible to replace HID with LED that I can also get better results from consuming lower energy amounts.

If that is the case, then it shows to prove that even though HID provides a larger amount of W/sqf that LED actually provides greater usage energy to the plants in that space.

As for being proven wrong, we will see how things go in my current grow. I had my gs600 light on for about 3 hours and there was no heat issue. I will see once again when I have them installed in the bloom room, if prolonged useage has any impact on them heat wise.

I don't think that your a snob btw or that you felt those ways, like I said just had to clarify the situation because sometimes you just never know. My only issue really is that your painting the whole board in one stroke based off your style and needs and wont admit the truth, that LED can currently be an effective replacement for HID lighting in some situations of grow, based off the growers desired results and actual achievable results.

Do you have any thoughts or issue with my earlier break down of useable lighting under HID when your breaking down W/Sqf?

As I have said before, from what I have seen, the majority of companies out there selling off their LED lights are really over priced. I feel it is important to support companies in this industry that actually care about their customers and wish to support this industry and help it grow even better. That is why regardless of cost of nutrients or any savings I could gain from supporting the big bix companies, who are now currently moving in on our market and want to take over the industry, I would rather choose to support a company such as Advanced Nutrients, which actually cares about the growth and development of our industry. The same goes for all parts of the industry, lighting included.

I think you will agree that when comparing LED to LED most companies are vastly overpriced then GrowStealth, they do not freely offer up as much information about their equipment and spec's as GS does, their products may or may not be up to the same level as GS (meaning that a SG 1250 HO might or might not perform as well as a GS600, for example). All in all that is pretty good record for that one company, so yes I am rather proud to support a company like that. I was not able to find another company that was as upfront, forward, and direct with their customers as GS is, did you happen to come across any you feel compare?

I did consider going with 357 Mag and ProSource, however with the issues of lack of actual spec information and the inflated costs of those other two companies I could not spend my money with them. Not to mention that I personally felt mislead and lied to by many of their claims, which I found insulting.

Anyway will check in later. maybe I will turn the lights off and get some regular light pics. I noticed that with the LED it makes it sometimes hard to see and look funny. Man I had a slice of pizza close by the light, looked so wierd.

(I'm going to consolidate some of these paragraphs, the posts are getting longer and longer)

Coverage is not "just a small part" of the debate. One of the main reasons that people use 1000w HID lights is to increase coverage so they can grow in a larger area, with the proper amount of light, without needing more lights, and if an LED company is going to claim that their light can "replace" a light then they're going to have to do better than just par+micromoles in a significantly smaller area. If the smaller LED could REALLY "replace" the 1000w HID, it would put out the same PAR+micromoles in the SAME area covered by the HID...but we all know that it cannot. That's the HYPE and it DOES seem like you've bought into it.

It's fine for an LED company to say it put out x amount of micromoles at 12" IN A SMALLER AREA but that doesn't mean it will replace a larger HID. How about comparing apples to apples instead? We all know the lighting measurements are higher the closer you measure to the source so comparing a LED at 12 inches, covering a smaller area, to a larger HID from a larger distance and covering a larger area is not a equal test.

Furthermore....regardless of how they come up with ANY measurement to put on paper. The REAL test is in the grows and you cannot claim that a 300-700w LED will replace a 1000w HID in the real world of growing if they cannot even cover the same areas or penetration power. I know that I can outgrow any LED smaller than 1000w in 20sqf with my 1000w HPS. If the LED was TRULY able to replace the larger light then I wouldn't be able to do that. The LED would NOT grow trees in 20sqf like I can do with the HID.

A 4th of July sparkler burns very hot (the old ones were basically thermite) in a very small area but you can't claim that a sparkler will replace a plasma cutter that cuts 1" steel.

The 5w diodes CAN make a difference. As your other thread mentions; a 1w diode will penetrate around 4 inches of canopy and a 3w LED will penetrate up to 16 inches, it's safe to say that a 5w LED will penetrate further therefore enabling a grower to grow taller plants. For SOG 5w may not help much, unless it had a wider angle lens so it could cover more area than a 3w diode with a more narrow lens. However, with your 5weeks of veg style, you might actually see a benefit with 5w diodes. I'd like to see even larger diodes...in the 10+w range, personally. Even with SOG, I'd want 3+w diodes although a SOG would tolerate 1w lights better than trees or mini-trees.

Increasing the w/sqf will not make them penetrate further, it just allows the plants to absorb more light within that area. Making an area smaller (which increases the w/sqf) will not make the light penetrate deeper. A 600w HID doesn't penetrate as deep as a 1000w light even if the smaller light is in a smaller area giving off say 60w/sqf. Increasing the power of the light does increase penetration.

I agree 100% that LED has come a long way and that LED might even be better than some other lights, like fluorescents and the smaller HID lights (sub 400w), assuming that people use ENOUGH w/sqf, too. That also assumes that the grower is willing to pay a higher price for the LED than they would have to spend on other lights. If cost is a major factor, LED is the wrong answer. One day, they might even be able to replace larger HID lights, just not today, imo, and not at the current prices.

Regardless, State or Country, there are always going to be people with different tastes and different crop experiences. I've seen people that swore that their (insert low/mid strain here) was the best thing they ever had until I pulled out some silly putty. (Man I miss that strain) It's also funny that people will call anything blue/purple "blueberry," even if it isn't. I've seen the same thing for years. One guy, back in the early eighties, tried to pass off an indica strain as Thai stick. I had to explain that Thai is a sativa strain and he still didn't get it. Now some people grow out their unknown bag-seed and call it "kush."


I've never once said that LED can't be effective in some cases. What I've said is that many LED companies overstate their coverages and that the claim that much smaller LED lights will replace a a 1000w HID are nonsense. I've also stated the FACT that more w/sqf is better than less w/sqf. I stand by those statements until proven otherwise but I won't hold my breath while waiting.


I think it's safe to say that LED lights are able to provide more of the types of light that plants seem to use but I wouldn't be so bold as to put a number on a percentage in those claims. For example, many people thought/think that all you needed was "red and blue" but it turns out that other bands/spectrums are beneficial in different stages and amounts too. UV and "green" were thought to be useless but it turns out plants do benefit from those sometimes.

I think that GS states their area coverages more accurately and their wattages (at cheaper prices than many others). GS-550 would be more accurate than calling it it a 600 but as long as they tell people the actual draw somewhere, I guess that's close enough. Actually, I'd like to see a 5w (7w-10w-25w) GS light too. I still say that LED needs to drop in price to 1/3-1/4 of current prices if they really want to compete.


MMMMMM, LED pizza...