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First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:26 pm
by ColoradoLED
Hello LED Grow Light Forum,

I am a new member and a first time grower. I am a little different that most of the first time growers here, primarily because I am doing this as research for my company. We are an Colorado based LED company supplying commercial and industrial lighting.

**Let me take a moment here to assure you all,especially SME, that I understand your forum policies and will not be doing anything here to directly promote my company. I just want to contribute and benefit like everyone else.**

With that out of the way, I want to give a quick back story.

Last year, with recreational cannabis on the horizon in Colorado, I started looking more into LED Grow lights. My initial research did not give me a whole lot of confidence. It wasn't until I went to the Hong Kong International Lighting fair and met with many of the manufacturers of these lights that I started to understand how and what works with LED grow lights.

But I needed more information.

Most of the "data" that is out there is more opinion than fact. LEDs are so new, that to most people they are just some high tech mystery riddled with unfamiliar acronyms and specifications that are difficult to understand.

This is true in the the grow light industry in particular. Too many of the people that newbies (like myself) turn to for advice are really just supplying opinions. Some of these opinions may contain facts but most are still just opinions and I always remember what my mom told me about opinions when I was little.

So, that is what brought me to post here first. I don't want to blow smoke up your skirt but this forum is, without doubt, the most civil of all that I have seen. It is the only forum that I have visited where I have yet to see one member start a reply by calling another member stupid(usually a little less PG than "stupid"). This is not really surprising as I have seen the "Pot Snob" phenomenon growing out here since we first legalized Medical. Personally, I would rather be more of a connoisseur than a snob but I digress.

Now on to the real fun stuff, the grow. I am not trying to replace commercial grow lights with all LEDs, I don't think that there is a commercially available and pragmatic LED solution right this moment. It is very close though. In the next few years, I anticipate that the LED grow light efficacy and costs will reach their respective sweet spots and HID lights will be a thing of the past. Instead, I am trying to develop a hobbyist horticulture system. Let's face it, growing cannabis is fun, much like brewing your own beer. Similar to home brewing, you can't expect to pull 3 lbs off a plant, regardless of lighting. I want an easy (relatively) way to grow a few plants in my house and not have to worry about burning the place down or have to install a supplemental AC system.

I am testing two different light styles both with our prescriptive wavelengths and ratios. Both are in 2x4x5, Mylar lined tents. Both tests are soil grows and the idea is to keep everything the same but the LED wattage. One light is small, only 120W, and the other is 300W. The difference being in the diodes themselves. The 120W light uses 1W diodes and the 300W uses 3W diodes but both are the same size footprint. Both operate at about 75-80% of their rated wattage. We are using a 20/20/20 nutrient solution with occasional (2-3 times per week) foliar treatment with CannaBoost.

We cheated a little bit and started with clones (teenagers). The flip to flowering started the morning of 5/04. It was running 24 hours and I went to total darkness for 36 hours before starting the 12/12 flowering cycle. The official start of flowering light began the night of 5/05.

Everything looks good so far and there is a ton of little buds popping on all plants. I have attached a pic form 4/30 and one form 5/10 showing the two plants in my tent side by side. What does anyone think of my little ladies?

I do have a growing list of growing questions but feel as though I have rambled enough for now. I just wanted to introduce myself and set the stage a little. I welcome any questions or comments. I also appreciate you reading my post and promise to be much more brief in the future.

Thanks,

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 11:40 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
ColoradoLED wrote:Hello LED Grow Light Forum,

I am a new member and a first time grower. I am a little different that most of the first time growers here, primarily because I am doing this as research for my company. We are an Colorado based LED company supplying commercial and industrial lighting.

**Let me take a moment here to assure you all,especially SME, that I understand your forum policies and will not be doing anything here to directly promote my company. I just want to contribute and benefit like everyone else.**

...

So, that is what brought me to post here first. I don't want to blow smoke up your skirt but this forum is, without doubt, the most civil of all that I have seen. It is the only forum that I have visited where I have yet to see one member start a reply by calling another member stupid(usually a little less PG than "stupid"). This is not really surprising as I have seen the "Pot Snob" phenomenon growing out here since we first legalized Medical. Personally, I would rather be more of a connoisseur than a snob but I digress.

I am not trying to replace commercial grow lights with all LEDs, I don't think that there is a commercially available and pragmatic LED solution right this moment. It is very close though. In the next few years, I anticipate that the LED grow light efficacy and costs will reach their respective sweet spots and HID lights will be a thing of the past. Instead, I am trying to develop a hobbyist horticulture system. Let's face it, growing cannabis is fun, much like brewing your own beer. Similar to home brewing, you can't expect to pull 3 lbs off a plant, regardless of lighting. I want an easy (relatively) way to grow a few plants in my house and not have to worry about burning the place down or have to install a supplemental AC system.

I do have a growing list of growing questions but feel as though I have rambled enough for now. I just wanted to introduce myself and set the stage a little. I welcome any questions or comments. I also appreciate you reading my post and promise to be much more brief in the future.


Welcome to the forums!

I appreciate that you noticed the spam rules and the civil environment. I've worked hard to make forums that I run different than most other 420 friendly sites. We occasionally get one in here that thinks they can act like they do on other sites but I don't tolerate that much.

LED grow lights *can* be used commercially, as long as people understand that a lot of the sales propaganda is just that. Styles have to be adjusted and the ROI may not be as quick or deep as HID...depending on the setup and other factors of course. They're definitely better for VEG than flower but you can flower with the better lights. Actually you can pull more than 3lbs off of one plant but you have to veg for a long time and use a LOT of light. Heat is easy to deal with. ;)

Ask away, we have some helpful members here. :D


SME

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:42 pm
by ColoradoLED
SME,

I was just thinking that perhaps my post would be better suited in the Grow Journals section. Should it be moved to there?

Thanks,

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:54 am
by rkymtnman
Hey,
I'm in CO too. Rocky Mtn High huh?

Why would you design/build a light that uses 3W diodes? Not to bust your stones, but if 5W are already on the market, why wouldn't you use them?

Good luck on the grow!
RKY

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 12:27 pm
by ColoradoLED
rkymtnman wrote:Hey,
I'm in CO too. Rocky Mtn High huh?

Why would you design/build a light that uses 3W diodes? Not to bust your stones, but if 5W are already on the market, why wouldn't you use them?

Good luck on the grow!
RKY


This is a great question and I am glad that you asked. The wattage is a huge factor, HUGE. But this first run is an experiment and I need to weigh the value of the wattage over a wider spectrum as well as the difference in low watt/high amp LEDs.

This last part is an important and often neglected factor

As we all know, the true Watt use is not the Watt rated use of LEDs (ex. 100W LED really uses 80W). The actual calculation is WATTS=VOLTS x AMPS. But if you have a high watt but low amp LED, the output may be lower that an LED rated at a lower watt but powered by higher amps. This can get confusing fast. And this gets even more difficult when you have to consider the draw of the driver as well as the diodes.

I am starting with this experiment to see if I give the plant specific wavelengths with low Watt, high Amp LEDs, how the plant accepts it as opposed to higher watt, lower amp LEDs. Then measure the value of rated Watts over applied current or Amps.

I think I neglected to explain this part in my initial post. I have two identical lights (from the outside) but one is 100 x 3W @ 0.300A diodes and the other is 120 x 1W @0.650A diodes. I plan to test the difference in yield and time to harvest between the two.

I hate to be the one adding to the confusion of LED grow light design but I do think it should be looked at by all before making a purchase. 5W LEDs that operate at or below 0.300A, may not get you what you expect.

I want to start by determining the baseline and then see how we can push it up without just dumping more wattage on it. I know that adding more rated wattage will increase the yield but how about more output with lower watts from higher current.

A good analogy is to think of this as pitting a 1970's V8 muscle car against 2014 Turbo Charged 4 cylinder.

It probably would have been better, as far as yield goes, to do this same testing with 5W diodes vs 10W diodes but cost, availability and convenience made it quicker to start here.

Besides, I was told by so many people the the 120W light won't be able to do it that I just had to try. My competitive nature got the best of me.

I hope this helps to explain my approach and please, keep asking me questions. This is a great help to me.

Thanks

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 12:56 pm
by ColoradoLED
I am working to catch up here with where my grow actually is so I will be posting some more pics of where I am with this right now. Since the 120W grow tent is the one that I am personally controlling, the 120W tent will be more regularly posted.

I am in the end of week three of flower. There are double digit bud locations popping up on both plants although the little guy plant B is still smaller and thinner.
The attached picture is from 5/14. I will post a current picture soon.
Plant Comp 05-14.jpg
Plant Comp 05-14.jpg (101.79 KiB) Viewed 8243 times


The day after taking this picture, I started a little LST. Nothing major just tied down the Apical Stems and a few main stems on both plants to help force the plant to bush out more and get light on some of the inner bud locations. It seems to be working, the lower stems started to push up to compete for apical dominance and the inner buds are getting fatter. I have attached a picture of my tie downs as well.
tie downs.jpg
tie downs.jpg (256.33 KiB) Viewed 8243 times


I had planned to remove these ties some time this week, so I don't completely stunt the girls, but I am open to any advice here.

Also, I have developed a powdery mildew problem. I have been instructed to treat this by spraying the plants with high pH water (7.0 to 7.5pH) and increase the air flow to help eliminate the mildew and keep it from going to straight bud rot. I have two small fans, one always on and one on with the lights, so I switched both of them to always on and have added a third fan to blow when the lights are on.

Please feel free to share any ideas for treating the powdery mildew as well. I am open to anything here.
Thanks

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 6:54 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
ColoradoLED wrote:SME,

I was just thinking that perhaps my post would be better suited in the Grow Journals section. Should it be moved to there?

Thanks,

If it becomes more of a journal, I can move it. ;)

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:12 pm
by ColoradoLED
The grow continues and is starting to get really fun. There are a great number of little bud sites all over both plants. The sites began popping up at the beginning of May. They were just little white hairs but now they are fully formed buds that are getting bigger by the day. I put together a little timeline of the bud sites development. It is really cool to watch these little ladies grow almost right in front of my eyes.
May - June Progress.jpg
May - June Progress.jpg (220.68 KiB) Viewed 8207 times



The plants have all but stopped to grow upward. This is the case for the 120W test tents as well as the 300W test tent. All of the grew about 1-2" after we flipped to flower, then just stopped. They all have continued to add on buds and now the buds are packing on some weight but I was anticipating the plants to stretch out more in the flowering stage.

Is this normal for LED grows?
Are they likely done growing taller by now (Day 37 of Flower)?
If they will still stretch some, what could be expected?

Thanks,

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:09 am
by SisterMaryElephant
No, typically cannabis (Indica/Sativa) plants will double, triple or more before stopping the vertical growth after the 12/12 flip. What genetics did you say you were growing?

Re: First Time Grow/Grower

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:46 am
by ColoradoLED
SisterMaryElephant wrote:No, typically cannabis (Indica/Sativa) plants will double, triple or more before stopping the vertical growth after the 12/12 flip. What genetics did you say you were growing?


These were clones from a local grower. The strain is Trainwreck, which I believe is a sativa dominant hybrid. i was told that it was hearty and a good producer so I went with it for my first grow figuring it would be more forgiving of any mistakes I make.

I measures again over this past weekend and we are around 18"-20". This is only about 2"-3" over what it was when I flipped the light cycle.

Thanks,