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Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:34 pm
by MadCat
Actual Comparison of the experience so far.

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Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:52 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
Interesting...

As you know, Quantum and HydroGrow are having a trade dispute but it's not settled so we'll let this journal continue. Both companies have similar lights and both claim the other is copying their lights. I'm not taking sides without doing more research. We have another member doing a journal using Quantum lights.


I think you've fallen for a bit of propaganda. EVERY manufacture that I've seen so far (including hydrogrow and CLW) overstates their coverage areas...at least when talking about cannabis growing. Maybe less w/sqft is fine for lettuce, algae or cucumbers but cannabis likes a LOT of light.

The SS400w has an actual draw of 310w (in flower mode (not including the UVB boost)) so lets do some area math:
In a 2x2 that would be 77.5w/sqft which should provide excellent results.
In a 2x3 that would be about 51.7w/sqft which should also provide very good results.
In a 3x3 that would be 34.4w/sqft which should provide less than ideal results.

I'm not sure what the actual draw is on the Sol 9 but I'd imagine that it's less than the 450w that they advertise, which is a major red flag for me. Somebody would have to put one on a "kill-a-watt" to take a real life measurement.

Even *IF* it was a true 450w actual draw LED light (and it probably isn't) the math doesn't look good.
In a 4x4 (as you and hydrogrow claim) that would be 28.1w/sqft which should provide poor to mediocre results.

I'll do more math on smaller spaces if I can get an actual draw measurement but I can only assume that it's less than 450w since LED lights are usually under-driven to reduce heat and increase diode life and it uses (according to their specs) 9 x 50w LED diode arrays. Unfortunately, diode arrays have been known to have heat issues and often burn out prematurely which maybe why they had "heat sink issues" and that also leads me to believe that it's actual draw is less than 450w. :(

Furthermore hydrogrow has some extremely questionable claims/propaganda on their website which is yet another BIG red flag for me.


Now, on to CLW:
I'm *very* disappointed to hear that you had customer service issues because CLW (and George specifically) have always been known for excellent customer support. That's one of the reasons I have such respect for CLW even though I still run HID lights. If you were treated poorly by somebody else there I'm sure George would want to know about it.

As with most HID grow lights, it's expected that they'll either be on or turned on and off by a timer so on-off switches aren't that common.

Finally, I don't see the "ugly" on the SS400w. To me it looks *much* better than the sol9 and it's made in America (not china), which is good and I don't appreciate the comparison of ugly as being "very American." I find that to be disparaging and inaccurate. While beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, you may want to rethink that kind of remark in the future.

Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:57 pm
by MadCat
I assumed that since it was my grow journal I was allowed to state my opinion. I do hope that is the case. Though from your response I am assuming probably not. I'll try to tick off the points 1 by 1 cause that is how I process things.

- I actually did not know about the trade dispute and quite frankly I, like most users probably don't care as long as the end result (the light) works great. That was the focus of the post I was making.

- I haven't fallen for propaganda: I did a lot of research before spending my hard earned money on lights.

That being said...

How effective the light is IS the most important part of buying a light.

- While I can say that I have gotten results with the Solarstorm and that the failures in my grow are probably due to my own mistakes so far, I do think it is important for everyone to know about the light coverage. I didn't mention anything about the wattage per sq inch because I have not had a chance to actually test it. What I did mention was that the light does not cover the 3X3 area that it states at 12". Where as the Sol 9 light does cover a 4X4 at at 12" above the floor. I can post pictures and include a tape measure to show this but I dont think that is needed. Once again I am not talking about the W/sqft. I am only talking about the light coverage that each unit produces. What I try to remember is that alot of people might be growing things other than weed so this could be useful info to them.

- Yes i don't believe much of what I see on the Hydro grow website. However like you said both websites seem to lie about things so that is not for or against any one company.

- CLW handled the issue well, with the exception of the guy at CS who basically said since it was a good deal that I should put up with the wait and not expect them to notify me. George was great about it once it was elevated to him but like I said I expect the the $ to get exceptional CS. It's not like either company is too big to fail. So nearly perfect customer service should be a top priority. While I can say that I was disappointed in CLW, I also said that the CS at hydrogrow was nearly horrific.

- Finally. The SS400w seems (I will use this to indicate my opinion) very american. What I mean by that is that it is very utilitarian in its looks. It seems like they build the light and then put a shell around the components. For example: A mustang is a very american looking car. While a Toyota is a foreign looking car. The Mustang has hard aggressive edges while the foreign car has a more rounded and aerodynamic look to it. BTW the made in america vs made in china thing doesn't appeal to me which is why it was not mentioned. IMO if it is a quality product than it doesn't matter where it was made. And american's are just a capable of making cheap junk as china is. The only real appeal that has is that perhaps it is easier to get the warranty enforced if it is made in america however if it is a quality product that doesnt matter much.

Thus:

The SS400W strikes me as being more masculine (generally considered the uglier sex) and the Sol 9 as more feminine (or pretty). Once again it is just my opinion.

When I get a good grow behind me I'll report how that goes but until then I can only comment on what I feel and try to be as honest as possible.

Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:41 pm
by MadCat
I just happened to have a Kill-A-Watt laying around so I took some pics for you. These are the #s and I used a website W/sq ft calculator to do the math so if its wrong please let me know so I can edit.

Sol 9: Advertised as 450W to cover 4'X4'

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SS400W: Advertised as 400W to cover 3'X3'

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SS400W: In Flower mode (no UBV)

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Sol9 = 28.94 W / sq ft

SS400W in Veg mode = 26.00 W/sq ft

SS400W in Flower mode = 36.78 W/sq ft

Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:55 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
(I'll take these slightly out of order)

You are, of course, allowed to state your opinions, I only asked that you choose your words carefully because we want this forum to be a bit more respectful that some of the other, larger, forums out there. As I said beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I wouldn't consider the Mustang to be ugly with that many hard edges either; I'd call it sleek. Then there's the problems cherry picking one model of cars, there are other Ford models that look just like Toyota, Honda and other "foreign" cars. Are those Fords less American? I think not. Compare that to a Volvo, known to be boxy and foreign. ;) Perhaps "masculine" and "feminine" is closer but I couldn't call the SS series ugly nor even uglier than the sol 9 but that's MY opinion and just because it's *your* journal doesn't mean that others can't have (and post) different opinions...as long as they're respectful. As I said, *I* (personally) didn't appreciate that choice of words/comparison but I *never* said that you didn't have a right to your opinion.

If you think that a sol 9 will properly cover a 4x4 area (as they claim) or larger (as you implied may be possible) for flowering then you have, indeed, fallen for LED marketing/propaganda and I can only assume that the research you did was flawed and the "data" provided by LED proponents because not enough w/sqft is not going to get anybody top-shelf results. If mediocre results is good enough then you might be happy with less w/sqft.

If you had researched HydroGrow you should have seen information about the dispute and I only mentioned it because I posted the same thing in the Quantum journal and it's only fair to mention it in a hydrogrow journal too. I'm not looking to debate the dispute in your journal, and like I told the other member, if you really want to debate the dispute we can start a new thread specifically for that. :D

LED lights are most effective with smaller plants and higher w/sqft numbers than every manufacture (that I've seen so far) claims.

CLW suggests placing their lights 18-24" above the canopy. The 12" figure that you might be thinking about is probably from their PAR measurements which, imho, is what much of the LED myth/propaganda is based on instead of reality. :( I'm not sure how high hydrogrow suggests putting their lights, their website and specs are lacking details but, again, no 450w (or less) LED light will properly cover a 4x4 area for flowering cannabis. Even the CLW SS800w (620w actual draw) is only 40w/sqft over a 4x4.

I wouldn't use the word "lie" for every website/manufacturer, some are more honest than others. However, I do think they overstate the coverage areas for marketing reasons. I am glad that you're taking the hydrogrow "claims" with a grain of salt.

I'm glad to hear that George handled things better but I believe that he wouldn't want his employees to be rude to customers. I'm sure that he takes his reputation for outstanding customer support seriously, as he should.

I am looking forward to your results but based on reality (and dozens of journals) I wouldn't want you to have unrealistic expectations that might sour your experience if you didn't know better. We want your honest opinions (on both lights) but I have to be honest with mine as well.

I think that you took the CLW measurement in "veg mode" which is, of course, lower than flower mode which should be about 310w based on the actual draw of the SS800w. ;)

I'm not sure how the sol 9 could possibly be putting out more than they say it uses. "Power Consumption 450W" but, fine, let's call it a 460w light and do the math.
4x4 = 28.75w/sqft. (not enough)
3x3 = 51.1w/sqft (much better)
2x3 = 76.7w/sqft (exceptional)

Now, if you keep you plants small the higher w/sqft coverages should give excellend results if the sol 9 can penetrate as well as LED lights with 5w diodes. Since we don't have any completed "array" journals yet I'm not sure what the differences in penetration will be. Hopefully, we'll find out soon. :D

Hope that helps...

Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:10 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
I see you edited your post while I was compiling mine and you added the flower mode wattage. I'm actually surprised that it's 330w instead of 310 as I had calculated but as I stated, they're both exaggerating how much space they'll cover in flower.

I'm not sure how GE came up with 38.58w/sqft over a 4x4 area though?
460w/16 sqft = 28.75w/sqft.

Yes, I did see the 12" figure after I looked again. ;)
CLW put their height recommendation in their PDF brochure: "From 18”-24” distance Up to 4’ X 4’"

Just because I disagreed with some of your opinions doesn't make it propaganda unlike the false coverage claims that I stated all companies provide. It SEEMS (to me) that you want to rely on the hydrogrow propaganda while claiming that you don't want your journal to be that. I've never been called a lefty before. :D

Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:32 pm
by MadCat
Not going to start an debate here. If it devolves into that than I can happily post my GJ somewhere less aggressive.

My first impressions post was not bias other than the observations I stated. Your reply post was very weighted which is why I called it propaganda. That being said please understand that I don't know you in any way. For all I know you could be on CLW's payroll or maybe just a fanboy or maybe you are 100% right... In any case I do not know.

Thus:

You can understand how it could be looked at when someone on the CLW forums so vigorously attacks a post that may make the CLW light look poor. (Which was not my intent) I understand that I may be wrong or mistaken about some things however it looks very bias for you to have made several posts and have said nothing positive about one of the two lights being compared.

PS. My little plant seems to be looking much better today. The stem isn't going to regrow but as long as I prop it up I think I can still get a decent enough plant to do some clones from.

As for my posts I dont think I've even used either website's claims (propaganda) with the exception of getting the hanging heights and the coverage areas.

Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:51 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
If your opinions can't handle a disagreement then you can stay or leave as you see fit but don't expect that only your opinion matters here.

YOU think I'm not allowed to disagree with you or it's propaganda? :roll:

So...even though I say that CLW and other LED manufacturers overstate their coverage and I often say that HID is better than LED for flowering that some how makes me a CLW employee or a CLW "fanboy?" Are you sure that you're not just butthurt because I disagreed with you?

I'm critical of some of CLW claims, I'm more critical of hydrogrow's (and some other LED lights too) claims because they make more false claims. I guess you could say that I believe there is LESS propaganda on the CLW site than others but I've often criticized LED grow lights, in general, including the coverage claims of CLW.

Logic isn't your strong suit. :lol:


Also, you might want to know that CLW has a section here for their grower feedback program but the admin "nickgreen" is actually a fan of prosource lights. We allow journals for almost every light unfortuantely, most of the other journals are incomplete. Personally, I'm a fan of HID lights. I've often said that CLW makes a very good product (I've seen them in person at my local hydro stores) and has LESS suspect claims on their website compared to others but that's easy to back up.

As for my posts I dont think I've even used either website's claims (propaganda) with the exception of getting the hanging heights and the coverage areas.

The coverage is the biggest part I disagreed with but you, for some reason, think that the sol 9 at 29w/sqft is more believable than the SS at 37w/sqft yet you tried to call ME a fanboy posting propaganda for daring to disagree with you. The other thing I disagreed about was your comparison of "ugly" as being "very American." Call me a patriot (not a lefty) but I found that disrespectful, opinion or not.

Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:13 pm
by MadCat
Reading must not be your strong suit.

Since I have REPEATEDLY said that my coverage was ONLY the actual light and not the w/sq ft that I was talking about. If that is your "only" objection than you really must be a fanboy or an employee because you have refused to read what I have wrote in every post regarding the light coverage. I posted the correct #s and the stats as they were and never said that I would choose one light over the other EXCEPT in the initial impressions. The only reference to light in that post was referring to the actual light (you know like how much of an area it lit up at 12" above the floor).

THAT LITERALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATTS PER SQ FT.

Yet somehow you can not understand that and so you keep raging about this like an idiot. It's your consistent lack of understanding (or willingness to read) that makes me think you are paid to say nice things about CLW. Plain and simple just stop posting in my GJ. OR post something useful. I don't need trolls or paid reps.

As far as your "it's made in america and therefore automatically better" attitude. Tell someone who believes your BS. SOME products are better because they are American made and SOME are not. It doesn't make me less of a patriot than you to say the truth. Being ignorant never got anyone anywhere. TONS of things are better quality that are not made in the USA.

Anytime you are so one sided you are wrong. That is very logical yet it escapes you. So logically either you are unable to see the logic in my statements. Whether because you are paid not to or are simply not intelligent enough to.

I guess if you post again the answer will be clear. If you pointlessly defend CLW again we all will know you are paid. If you can be a reasonable member of the human race than maybe you are not a pawn.

Either way if you are only going to be a troll than everyone is going to see you as that.

Re: 400 w LED Solarstorm GJ vs Sol 9 + stem rot issue

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:19 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
Allow me to take the decision of whether or not you stay here away from you. We *demand* that our members act like adults (you failed) and you don't seem to handle it well when people disagree with you. You're done here.

Good luck elsewhere...