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pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:49 pm
by pisenberg
Introduction:

high i am pi-senberg. brother to heisenberg. i am using the solar flair 400 which i received on christmas eve. what a christmas present!

i grew my first mj plant which was columbian gold back in 1972. in the 80's i bought a high bay 1000 watt metal halide ballast and a standard metal halide bulb. there were no special growing bulbs back than and i dont recall that the horizontal option was available at that time.

i have never done much hydro as many of us call chem-gak. i am pretty much a soil kinda guy but im willing to learn hydro at some point. my best grow under 2k yielded about 74 oz or about 2 and 3/8 th pounds per 1k. i have been some what inactive the last few years but i am riding that bike again.

i had some problems registering but now that is cleared up i can post what i have for a grow report to date. i could do a better job and will try to over the last 5 weeks of a 9 week grow cycle. week 4 officially ended on friday valentine's day, so i am into week 5.

ill do my best to be as objective as possible.

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:17 pm
by pisenberg
Grow journal of solar storm 400 w from california lightworks:

i bought a new led light called the solar storm 400 w from california lightworks

it uses 230w in veg and 320/345 watts in flower. The 345 watt setting includes uv bulbs for potency.

the veg setting footprint is supposed to be about 6' x 6'

flower setting footprint is supposed to be about 4' x 4'

he payed $600 up front on a 90 day trial. So time is ticking. He got his unit christmas eve.

i am taking notes so that some comparison can be provided. If i like the results i may buy one as well. We shall see. i am hopping i can swap it out for the new solarflair 440 and pay for shipping only.

the following are images of the light out of the box.

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:46 pm
by pisenberg
Notes and comments prior to starting flowering cycle.

-well electrical usage is an issue. An astute observation. otherwise i would have gone a more conventional route. ie metal halide and electronic ballast which served me well in the past. This is nothing more than an alternative to not growing at all at this point.

-room is 14 x 12. 8 ft ceiling. The house has no heat and no air. When the veg portion of the light was turned on the actual heat output in degrees raised the 58 degree ambient temp of the room to 60 degrees. this is a problem.

-the rooting of clones was slow going even WITH a heat pad. Veg growth is slow. Real slow regardless of what they are under. We also use cool white 6500/40watt floros in shop lights.

-medium: sunshine mix no additives.

-container size: 3 gal pots that are actually 2.3 gallon pots.

-actual amount of soil used: 2 gallons per pot.

-grow foot print: 4 x 4 containers >>>> at 10" diameter >>> 40" x 40" footprint. For this unit they recommend 36" x 36" flowering footprint and 72" x 72" vegetative footprint. i will say this. They love veg under this unit especially on the perimeter. Gorgeous plants.

-fertilizer:

added one tablespoon epsom salts per gal of water when i wet the 2 gal of sunshine mix on the final pot up.

through the 1st two weeks of flowering (or stretch or vegetative cycle of flowering) ... lucas formula :
- 5 ml each per gallon gh flora micro
- 10 ml each per gallon gh flora bloom
- 5 ml k-l-n rooting hormone

-last 7 weeks of flowering... ? we are thinking of going with Botanicare Pure Blend Pro - Soil Formula. a teaspoon per gallon of water.

-flush: the last two weeks.

-90 days time frame. Received unit 12/24/13 which means it needs to be back in their hands by approx 3/24/14.

-to be flipped: 1/18/13

-harvest at 9 weeks: 3/21/22

yikes we will barely have time to test a few buds and judge yield to see if it worth it. We should have waited until the clones were ready to flip when we ordered it. we screwed up. Oh well.

improvements that are in the works...

-water heater.

-move unit to corner and enclose using two panels forming a 6 x 6 box

-reflective film to be added to walls and panels

-flooring to be covered with a shower curtain for more reflection

having the panels will do two things. Enclose for added reflectivity and should help hold heat in. we are currently using a space heater to raise temps to 70 degrees but the light from the coils is not acceptable as it is a light leak. An enclosed grow will help solve this problem.

i did some calculation for comparison sake

1000 watt ballast:
1000 w x 63 days x 12 hrs/day /1000 = 756 kwhr per crop <===

320 w x 63 days x 12 hrs/day /1000 = 242 kwhr per crop
25 w x 14 days x 12 hrs/day /1000 = 4.2 kwhr per crop
================================================
= 246 kwhr per crop <===

(is my math right? Hope its not stoner math hehe)

assuming a good crop from a 1000 w metal halide light would yield 2 pounds without co2 the solar flair 400 light based on a comparison of watts only should yield 246/756 x 32 oz= 10.4 oz

this aint happening this cycle. Small clone size. Learning curve. Cool temps. Light leaks. Untimely potting up. have all already affected the yield. Although even with these small plants i could see close to a half zip per which would be 8 oz.

of course the other consideration is quality of bud and high.

will add some pics to this post later today.

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:09 pm
by pisenberg
Pictures taken 12/26/13. Random notes taken during vegetative cycle before flip to flowering.

Notes:

-the plants were not put under the solar flair for additional vegetative growth until approx 1/11 or about a week. they remained under cool white floro 4 ft shop lights.

-not sure if the 16 plants were topped in the picture below yet.

-the 10"-14" measurements were taken at the time they were topped.

-they are still in 4" containers which is another issue i forgot to mention. They should have been in the 3 gallon pots by now. That is another thing many growers do negatively imo. As soon as you see roots at the bottom of the container you are in, if its not the final container they are ready to repot up. We didnt do that in a timely manner which equals less yield.

unfortunately they dont have cheap 3 gal pots here yet. They want 4 bucks each for the blown plastic 3 gallon nursery pots which are 10in / 8in dia by 9 inches high. About 230 sq inches which is short of 3 gallons by a bit. So we had to order a lot of 25 pots for 1.25 each off of ebay.

the mfg also recommends that the light be between 18-24 inches above the canopy. They are 15" or less above the canopy in the images below. the plants like 21" much better as they tended to cup downward when the light was so close.... As if the leaves were trying to get away from too many lumens.

damn our list of things 'not to do' is growing by the minute. Doh.

it is hell trying to get back on that growing bike again.

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:18 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
Welcome to the forums!

Yes, 74 oz for 2kw = 1g/w which is pretty good. No LED grow, here, has broken that yet and no LED grow that I've ever seen has broken that with the kind of results you likely saw with the 2kw HID.

I hope you're planning on doing a complete grow for your GFP journal, 1/2 a flower cycle isn't really what they had in mind when they offered such a big discount. ;)

CLW does NOT suggest 4x4 for flowering *cannabis* with the SS400w, in fact, they say flowering with the SS800w can go "up to" a 4x4 but if you notice they don't say that's for cannabis. You really need more than 20-40w/sqft for cannabis. I'd be looking at 50+w/sqft and *I* wouldn't go over a 3x2 for the SS400w.

Lucas Formula is *not* 5ml micro + 5ml bloom. For LED we think that 6-12 or 7-14 might be best. For high powered HID he suggested 8-16 and for fluorescents he said 5-10.

The kwh math seems right but you know that with 1/3 of the light you'll get 1/3 of the yield too. So while you *do* save electricity, you also lose yield and you'd also save electricity with a smaller HID. ;)

If you were to hit the 1g/w target you'd end up with about 11.3 oz...by my math.
330w = 330g / 29g (rounded) = 11.3 (also rounded)

Right, transplanting during flower adds more stress, it's best to do it a week before flipping to 12/12.

The closer to the canopy that you keep the light the less area it will cover well. Part of the reason they claim the lights cover such a large area is based on the 18-24" number. ;)

Hope that helps!


SME

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:32 pm
by pisenberg
Meet the strains...

Notes:

- the schematic below represents the (16) plants under the led

- i will try to keep all plant relevant measurements on this page. Each week i will add updates here.

- the 5th measurement is at the end of week 4. Measurements 1-4 were taken randomly to explain inconsistent growth.

- due to stretch i have had to redo the chart corresponding to the new positions. the plants have been moved to form a better canopy.

SCHEMATIC AFTER STRETCH

2 banana oger (3) #1,#2,#3
3 cheese (5) #4,#5,#6,#7,#8
7 hero (3) #9,10,#11
9 purple dog (5) #12,#13,#14,#15,#16

2222_____2222_____7777_____7777
2222_____2222_____7777_____7777
#1_______#2_______#9_______#10

2222_____3333_____3333_____7777
2222_____3333_____3333_____7777
#3_______#7_______#8_______#11

3333_____9999_____9999_____3333
3333_____9999_____9999_____3333
#4_______#15______#16______#6

3333_____9999_____9999_____9999
3333_____9999_____9999_____9999
#5_______#12______#13______#14

APPROXIMATE HEIGHT OF THE PLANTS

* first 4 measurements taken randomly

* measurement 5 taken end of week 4

* i only showed the height measurements through 4 weeks. there has not been enough change in height since end of week 4 to continue to record them. the last measurement is how tall they were after 4 weeks of flower.

#1.banana og... 16,19, 20, 24, 27
#2.banana og... 16,17, 20, 24, 27
#3.banana og... 18, 18,19, 23, 26
#4.chz... 15, 15, 17, 19, 19
#5.chz... 15, 16, 17, 19, 20
#6.chz... 14, 15, 17, 18, 19
#7.chz... 12, 14, 16, 17, 18
#8.chz... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18
#9. hero... 15, 15, 17, 19, 23
#10.hero... 17, 19, 21, 25, 27
#11.hero... 14, 15, 16, 19, 20
#12.purple dog... 14, 14, 16, 18, 19
#13.purple dog... 14, 14, 15, 17, 19
#14.purple dog... 13, 14, 15, 17, 19
#15.purple dog... 12, 12, 13, 16, 17
#16.purple dog... 12, 13, 14, 17, 18

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:38 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
16 plants, flowered at ~12", in such a small area will be overcrowded by time they finish. You might consider culling some but it's up to you... ;)

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:13 pm
by pisenberg
SisterMaryElephant wrote:Welcome to the forums!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH. GLAD TO BE HERE.

Yes, 74 oz for 2kw = 1g/w which is pretty good. No LED grow, here, has broken that yet and no LED grow that I've ever seen has broken that with the kind of results you likely saw with the 2kw HID.

DIDNT EXPECT TO. NOT MY FIRST RODEO :)

WHEN I AM ON MY GAME I DO THINK I CAN APPROACH 3 POUNDS A 1K WITH 3 MONTHS VEG INCLUDING CLONING TIME. I AM FAR FROM BEING ON MY GAME AT THE MOMENT.


I hope you're planning on doing a complete grow for your GFP journal, 1/2 a flower cycle isn't really what they had in mind when they offered such a big discount. ;)

DO YOU HONESTLY THINK I WOULD SPEND THIS MUCH TIME WRITING DOWN DATA AND LEAVE IT HALF FINISHED? I HOPE TO GIVE DRY WEIGHTS (2 WEEK CURE / STEM SNAP WEIGHTS). THEY DONT CALL ME PI FOR NOTHING. I HAVE MORE INFO TO ADD. LOTSA TYPOS AND MISTAKES I AM CATCHING. STILL. AS I TRANSFER IT FROM ON BOARD TO ANOTHER. :)

MORE IMPORTANTLY I GAVE MY WORD THAT I WOULD GO TO COMPLETION. BARRING MY DEATH ETC. I WILL FINISH WHAT I STARTED. I AM A MAN OF MY WORD.


CLW does NOT suggest 4x4 for flowering *cannabis* with the SS400w, in fact, they say flowering with the SS800w can go "up to" a 4x4 but if you notice they don't say that's for cannabis. You really need more than 20-40w/sqft for cannabis. I'd be looking at 50+w/sqft and *I* wouldn't go over a 3x2 for the SS400w.

SEE RODEO ABOVE. SOME OF THAT IS JUST YOUR OPINION. SOME I AGREE WITH SOME I DONT. MOST OF THIS WAS FROM MEMORY. SO I OBVIOUSLY MISREMEMBERED SOME THINGS.

IF I HAD OPTIONS THAT INCLUDED UNLIMITED E USAGE I PROMISE YOU I WOULD BE USING GRAVITA OR MICROMOLE BALLASTS. (did i spell them right?) UNFORTUNATELY I DONT.


Lucas Formula is *not* 5ml micro + 5ml bloom. For LED we think that 6-12 or 7-14 might be best. For high powered HID he suggested 8-16 and for fluorescents he said 5-10.

YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE LUCAS FORMULA. BEEN AWHILE SINCE I WROTE IT DOWN. 8/16. AS FAR AS WHAT EVERYBODY RECOMMENDS... IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT EVERY GROW IS A BIT DIFFERENT. I BASED MY 5/5 RATIO WHICH WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN 5/10 ON THE FACT THAT I WAS GETTING POOR QUALITY BURN IE CHARCOAL ASH AND LUMPS. PRODUCT WOULD NOT STAY LITE AND WAS HARSH. I DIALED BACK ALL MY NUTS TO FIX THAT PROBLEM.

I HAD BEEN USING THE GH SERIES THROUGH THE STRETCH/VEGETATIVE PORTION OF FLOWERING ONLY AND SWITCHED TO PURE BLEND PRO FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE CYCLE. SAVE A BIT ON NUTE COSTS AND STILL GET A GOOD RESULT. THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO 'PET' A CAT. :lol:


USING THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE GAVE ME JOINTS OF CHARCOAL WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING. MYSELF AND A FEW OTHERS HAD MUCH BETTER TASTE AND BURN WHEN WE WENT TO 5 ML DOSAGE. GETTING BACK TO THE 'YOUR GROW AINT MY GROW' ISSUE' .... NOT ALL PLANTS USE NUTRIENTS IN THE SAME AMOUNTS. WHEN YOU HAVE 35 DIFFERENT STRAINS AS I DID. YOU LOOK FOR A ONE SIZE FITS ALL. 5/10 ML FOR VEG AND STRETCH PLUS 5 ML PB FOR FLOWERING WORKED WELL FOR ME.

IMO MOST FERT MFG RECOMMEND USING THE HIGH END OF THE SPECTRUM ON THEIR NUTES. MAKES SENSE WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT THEY ARE IN THE BIZ TO SELL YOU NUTES. THE MORE YOU USE THE MORE THEY MAKE. BUDDY OF MINE WHO WORKED FOR ADVANCED NUTRIENTS AND WAS PART OWNER OF QUANTUM BALLAST ADMITTED AS MUCH.

The kwh math seems right but you know that with 1/3 of the light you'll get 1/3 of the yield too. So while you *do* save electricity, you also lose yield and you'd also save electricity with a smaller HID. ;)

I GUESS I DIDNT EXPLAIN MYSELF WELL. I THOUGHT I BROUGHT THAT OUT IN MY COMPARISON? AS I MENTIONED FROM MY 2ND POST... ELECTRICITY USAGE "IS'' AN ISSUE FOR ME ON ANY NUMBER OF LEVELS. SO YOUR PREACHING TO THE CHOIR. NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY SAVING. UNLESS I AM MISSING SOMETHING.... DRAW ON THAT UNIT IS PURPORTED TO BE 325W OR THERE ABOUTS. LAST TIME I LOOKED 1000 W > 600> 400>325. NOW IF YOU WANT TO TALK ACTUAL DRAW MEASURED BY AN AMP METER I AM NOT EQUIPPED NOR DO I CARE ABOUT THAT AT THIS POINT. THE PROOF IN MY PUDDING IS MY ELEC BILL. THE PLANTS LOOK GREAT. THEY ARE SMALLER THAN WHAT I WOULD USE UNDER A 1K / 600/ 400 BECAUSE OF ISSUES I HAVE HEARD ABOUT PENETRATION WRT LEDS.

If you were to hit the 1g/w target you'd end up with about 11.3 oz...by my math.
330w = 330g / 29g (rounded) = 11.3 (also rounded)

MEH NOT ENOUGH DIFFERENCE TO PICK AT IMO.

Right, transplanting during flower adds more stress, it's best to do it a week before flipping to 12/12.

I AGREE WITH THE WEEK BEFORE. THAT HAS BEEN MY MO FOR 15 YEARS. HOWEVER IN LIEU OF THE FACT THAT I HAVE TO USE 3 DIFFERENT 'POT UPS' DUE TO LIMITED SPACE AND I LACK A SURPLUS OF LIGHTS AVAILABLE FOR VEGGING (I HAVE ELECTRICITY ISSUES REMEMBER?)

THEIR IS THE ALSO THE ISSUE OF THE ROOTS CIRCLING THE POT. IF YOU TRANSPLANT A PLANT AFTER IT HAS FILLED THE POT WITH ROOTS OR THE ROOTS HAVE STARTED GOING ROUND N ROUND N ROUND YOU LOOSE YIELD. THIS GOES BEYOND 'STRESS' IMO. IF I HAD MY DRUTHERS I'D PUT THE PLANTS IN THEIR FINAL POT ASAP BUT I CANT.

The closer to the canopy that you keep the light the less area it will cover well. Part of the reason they claim the lights cover such a large area is based on the 18-24" number. ;)

I AM A RODEO CLOWN AND A MECHANICAL/QUALITY ENGINEER SO ILL DISREGARD COMMENTING ON SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS ON THE OBVIOUS. :)

ONE OBSERVATION ID LIKE TO MAKE IS THAT WHEN I FIRST GOT THAT LIGHT I HAD IT 15" ABOVE THE PLANTS. THEY DID NOT SEEM TO LIKE IT AT ALL AS ALL MY LEAVES CUPPED DOWNWARD. PLANTS LOOKED GREAT AND I SAW NO LEAVE POINTING UPWARDS. HUH I THOUGHT. A BUDDY OF MINE SAID HIS WERE ALWAYS CUPPED DOWN TOO. WHEN I MOVED THAT LIGHT TO 21" BIG DIFFERENCE. IMO THEY CUPPED DOWNWARD TO ESCAPE EXCESSIVE LUMENS. LESS SURFACE AREA OF THE LEAVES TO CATCH THAT LIGHT.

HAVING SAID THAT. YOU CAN READ ALL THE LITERATURE YOU WANT AND IT MEANS NOTHING IN THE FACE OF ACTUAL RESULTS. BOTTOM LINE FOR ME IS.... I LET MY PLANTS TELL ME WHAT THEY LIKE. I WILL HAVE MORE OF AN OPINION AFTER I HARVEST. MY GREATEST CONCERN AT THIS POINT IS NOT YEILD BUT POTENCY.


Hope that helps!

THANKS FOR THE TIPS ETC. I WILL TAKE THEM TO HEART. NICE MEETING YOU. GOOD TO SEE THAT THEY HAVE AN ELEPHANT WITH A LONG LONG LOOOOOONG MEMORY TO SORT OUT MY MIS- REMEMBERED FACTS. KEEP ME ON MY AHEM TOES WOULD YA!


SME

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:33 pm
by pisenberg
SisterMaryElephant wrote:16 plants, flowered at ~12", in such a small area will be overcrowded by time they finish. You might consider culling some but it's up to you... ;)


THIS IS MY FIRST RODEO WITH LED. I AM EXCITED BY WHAT I AM SEEING SO FAR. THAT MAY OR MAY NOT CHANGE BY THE TIME I AM FINISHED.

EVEN AT THAT I HAVE HAD SO MANY ISSUES THAT AFFECT YIELD CROP UP THAT I DONT CONSIDER THIS A FAIR TEST IMO. IF I CAN HARVEST 2 QP'S PLUS WITH THIS GROW AND THE POTENCY IS THERE ILL BE HAPPY. AT 4 WEEKS MY PLANTS ARE ALL ROOTBOUND. LOOKS LIKE I SHOULD HAVE USED MORE SOIL.

I AM OF THE OPINION THAT A SS400 MAYBE A BETTER CHOICE FOR VEGGING AS OPPOSED TO T-8 BALLASTS. FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN THE FOOTPRINT IS LARGER UNDER THE SS400 THAN THE T-8'S I HAVE SEEN. NO BULBS TO BUY. AND VEG USES ONLY 235 WATTS AS COMPARED TO 320. HOPE I HAVE THE NUMBERS RIGHT.

RIDE THAT GROWING BIKE PI-SENBERG RIDE. ILL GET BACK TO WHERE I NEED TO BE BUT NOT FAST ENOUGH TO SUIT ME. CANT WAIT TO GET BACK TO USING CO2.

I ASKED A BUDDY OF MINE ABOUT THE NUMBER OF PLANTS. HE HAS THE SAME UNIT. HE DID 16 PLANTS VEGGED TO 18" TALL AND CLAIMS TO HAVE APPROACHED A POUND. HE SAID ILL LOVE IT. THE SPECS SAY 36" FOOTPRINT. 10 INCH POTS CREATED 39" FOOTPRINT. 3 INCHES NOT ENOUGH TO QUIBBLE ABOUT.

THE REASON I USED 'DID' WAS BECAUSE MY FRIEND OF 16 YEARS DIED ON THURSDAY HE WAS 50 YEARS OLD.

RIP STONPONY. :cry:

Re: pi-senberg and his solar flair 400 trial run

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:05 pm
by SisterMaryElephant
All of my comments were based on what you had posted, I have no idea what your experience or knowledge is/was and my comments are so *everyone* that reads them can learn and in no way a jab at what you know or don't know. What may be obvious to you and/or me may not be so obvious for others. Don't take my comments personally... ;)

You're right the SS400w is a much better veg light than any fluorescent.

16 plants vegged to 18" is way overcrowded, imho, and he would have probably done better with fewer plants. With that much over-crowding he had virtually no penetration to the lower parts and even a low density SOG would be flowered at 12" with a density of 1 plant/sqft. In 36-40"/sq 16 is a LOT of plants and as I said, the SS400w is best suited to 2x3 area so 40"/sq is pushing it even *beyond* what CLW suggests. If you don't mind smaller fluffier flowers, go ahead and use less w/sqft. If you don't want to take *my* word for it ask anyone here with a completed SS400w journal if they think it'll properly cover that many plants that are that big when they flip...

While it's true that the CLW "specs" say a 36" footprint, they mean the canopy footprint not the pots on the ground. The canopy is always wider than the pots if you veg for 12+inches and flower for 8+ weeks. Since you know to take the nutrient manufacturers strength suggestions with a grain of salt, it's wise to take LED manufacturers coverage claims with the same. ;)