LED Grow Light Forum

MC my man! I am so impressed, I hardly know where to start! Your screen is going to be so full of flowers, I can't wait to see these next 6 weeks...great job.

Those pineapple ladies...you are not going to believe the density of the "chunks" those flowers will develop into...and the sweetness is very difficult to describe...I think I actually recommended "Smell-a-vision" hahah...

I like your analysis of the breeder's claims vs. your experience, nice touch...

I have experienced what I thought was growth delays due to light leakage...but that was more like a constant red or green glow, vs. a quick blast of light on occasion. I mean, the moon usually provides enough light outside to be able to see by, but outdoor plants seem to flower ok...and the outdoor plants survive a little flashlight work without noticeable issues...so I don't know.

I just try to time the "light cycle" to provide a pretty good window of opportunity to get in and out of the garden...good intentions and all that!

Look forward to next week's pics
ICB

Hi everyone,

Yesterday was day 24 of flowering, and I'm very happy with how things are progressing. I have to say, the UVB lamps seem to really be having a big effect on resin production... Either that or it's just way superior genetics compared to the garbage clones I was growing before. Maybe both. Either way I don't think I've seen this much resin production this early into flower. Frankly, there've been times that I've gone in there and thought, oh my good dear lord I've got powdery...... trichromes?!? On sun leaves??? BEFORE WEEK 4???? Sure enough I've been scoping out every surface of every plant I can get my hands on, and after a sub-massive defoliation, observing the leaves I removed and those still left on the plant I can report zero mildew, mold or pests of any kind.

My humidity has been really under control for the most part. I say "for the most part" because while my remote humidi/thermometer reads 40-55% at canopy level, there has been a large quantity of condensation on the intake and exhaust ducting for my 1000w HPS. So much so that if I jostle the ducting, water showers off of it onto the floor like it's raining. The reason for this is that the air entering the duct has been -10 to +5 degrees F, while the air in the tent has been 78* lights off to 89* lights on. I'm not sure that there's anything I can do in this instance to prevent the condensation with that big of a temperature gap, nor do I really think it's my enemy. If water's condensing on the tubing, and not dripping, it stands to reason it's not condensing on my plants. Which is a good thing.

I do wonder though if turning off my 1000w HPS exhaust fan during lights off (daytime hours) might reduce condensation by not pulling super-chilled air through while the light isn't running. So I just unplugged it, and will observe temperature and humidity readings to see if there is a difference. I'd like to see temps go up slightly with lights off, and humidity stay the same at canopy level or drop.

And the girls seem to be doing just fine. Enough talking, here are some pictures.



While I enjoy looking at the girls very much, I appreciate even more how they smell. Both plants have very sweet, floral aromas. I'd say the Money Maker is slightly more floral than the Pineapple Chunk which has a more citrusy smell. Money Maker is also developing a Kushy smell that I think will be very nice if the smoke and vapor are as sweet as she smells.

Developmentally, Money Maker 1 is still quite ahead of everyone else, including her sister #2 in flower and resin production. She just seems to be--and has been throughout this grow--almost a week ahead of all the others. If you'll recall, she was the seedling that I predicted wouldn't make it on day 3 of her life, she got blown over by a fan, and her stem bent and withered leaving her so weak I had to support her with a twist tie. I might just the fan on high on all my seedlings now just to get them to supercrop first thing in life. I'm mostly kidding, but I have a hard time believing her phenotype alone is responsible for her dominance in growth and vigor. This strain has been around since the 90s, I'd figure it's pretty darn stable at this point.

I ended up pulling off a fair amount of yellow and dead foliage from both Pineapple Chunks, more so from #1 than #2. You can see the yellowing, primarily in the center lower canopy, right in the center of the stem where the ScROG bends the plant laterally. I noticed a split knuckle in the stem that I attribute most of the yellowing to on this plant to, but there was also some larger fan leaves on both plants that were noticeably yellow as well. Maybe she's still hungry for more nutes, but I fed them at the top of the dosage chart provided by canna, and doubt this is the problem. Overall though, with over 90% healthy looking plant growth, I'm really not too worried about it.

CO2 enrichment still happening, UVB still happening on a 1/2 hour on, 1/2 hour off basis. I think closer to the end of flowering I'll crank it back up to full time.

Hope I didn't lose everyone interest by not using LED anymore on an LED forum. I really do wish that I could have evaluated the Solar Storm throughout this entire grow. I'm guessing that my condensation wouldn't be as much of a problem, and I did not see that as a consequence of switching back to HPS. Another probable benefit of the SS880. Whether the lack of condensation on a cold surface would increase RH is another thing I wonder about what might have been with the SS880.

Thoughts, questions and general chatter always appreciated!
MC

Looking really good! Our Canadian hemp wrangler would be happy with all those trichs I see.

rkymtnman wrote:Looking really good! Our Canadian hemp wrangler would be happy with all those trichs I see.

LOL! Thank you. "Hemp wrangler" is one of the best terms I've ever come across. I might use it as a derogatory term for sub-par growers... if you don't mind! Even though the dude in the video most certainly does not seem like a sub-par grower... he knows his stuff. Disc cells, fibrous matt, vacuoles... Love that guy.

By the way I did email La Platta last night. I'll let you know on your thread if/when they get back to me.

ItsCurtisBaby wrote:MC my man! I am so impressed, I hardly know where to start! Your screen is going to be so full of flowers, I can't wait to see these next 6 weeks...great job.

Those pineapple ladies...you are not going to believe the density of the "chunks" those flowers will develop into...and the sweetness is very difficult to describe...I think I actually recommended "Smell-a-vision" hahah...

I like your analysis of the breeder's claims vs. your experience, nice touch...

I have experienced what I thought was growth delays due to light leakage...but that was more like a constant red or green glow, vs. a quick blast of light on occasion. I mean, the moon usually provides enough light outside to be able to see by, but outdoor plants seem to flower ok...and the outdoor plants survive a little flashlight work without noticeable issues...so I don't know.

I just try to time the "light cycle" to provide a pretty good window of opportunity to get in and out of the garden...good intentions and all that!

Look forward to next week's pics
ICB

So ICB, I posted a reply to this but evidently it didn't get posted, so let me try to remember it all again:

Thank you for your kind words! I really feel like my hard work down there, research, and everyone's help will really pay off on this grow.

The pineapple chunks smell so citrusy and nice, sweet, and the pineapple scent is really coming through as they grow larger buds. I think I mentioned that I'm going to turn off my carbon filter on thanksgiving morning, fill the house with delicious pineapple weed smell, then turn the filter back on and cover that smell with turkey and gravy.

The PC has me really excited, mostly because I don't typically choose my strains based on taste and smell specifically, but more on potency and cannabinoid profile. The PC seems like a winner with a claimed 25% THC and 1.2% CBD, it should be a knockout.

I've read some say that flowering time can go well beyond the claimed 55 days. A grower on grasscity's forum remarked that it took 90+ days to flower out all the way. Was that your experience?

Thanks again!
MC

To the best of my understanding, optimal grow temp is based on a few things. First is CO2. The higher the CO2, the higher the temperature the plant can handle before shutting down growth. At 2000ppm (plants can actually use much higher levels but humans risk headaches and even death as the levels exceed 3000) you can probably run over 90 degrees and get VERY rapid growth.

Temperature is the primary metabolic (growth rate) regulator on plants if everything else is optimal. But the plant will only grow as fast as the weakest link. And as temps get over 90 deg EVERYTHING has to be right or you risk the plant closing up and stopping growing. They won't die, (I've had mothers outside do just fine at 105 degrees in the SHADE with freshly watered ie cool root masses) but they wont GROW above a certain threshold that is a product of CO2 level, Humidity, and as always optimal light levels. Nutes are less important as most people over feed anyway.

As for night temps, the KEY is the root mass temp. Because of the high thermal mass of a wet root mass, generally the root temp will be around the mid-point (average) between the hottest day temp and the coolest night temp. Obviously, the dryer the root ball is the hotter it will get. You want to keep that average root temp BELOW about 75-78 degrees because oxygen saturation of nutrients decreases linearly with temp and root nasties (bad fungus etc.) like warm, low oxygen conditions. Roots also actually change if exposed to prolonged low oxygen, and become less efficient, so keeping root oxygen high is CRITICAL for growth and health. So, the hotter you run in the daytime, the colder you need to run your nights, so that you maintain an average optimal root temp of around 72ish. And keeps those bugs (Bacteria) fed with a LITTLE sugar (maybe 1 tsp / gal of Botanicare Sweet) in the nutes because bugs like Bacillus Subtilis eat the slimy carbohydrate material the roots sluff off as they grow and keep them sparkly clean. From the research I've done so far, exactly how much sugar the plants can actually absorb through the roots is a still a matter of speculation, but it is proven mychorizza can allow some sugar uptake cause they break the sugars down first. The roots do store carbs though so it would make sense.. (See Sweet potato)

Also, the hotter you go, the dryer the air should be to assist in water transpiration (which also carries more nutes) to cool and feed the plant. But if you run below 50% humidity (Which in general I do not recommend until the last 2 weeks without covers) it is helpful to cover the top of the pot with the little lids they sell to reduce pot evaporation. Pot evaporation increases the nute concentration in the pot since only the water evaporates not the minerals, and it can cause nute lockout or toxic levels.

So the hotter and dryer you run, the more frequently you want to water with just water and maybe a little 1/4 strength Final Phase or other EBDT (chelation agent) product to re-dissolve and utilize those left behind nutes and keep the overall levels down. The pot lids all but eliminate this requirement, but usually do one good flush at 4-5 weeks. And when an area of the pot gets bone dry, those nutes turn to salts and oftentimes are resistant to re-solution, so you have to be careful of letting pots completely dry more than the top 1/2 inch or so. Use more aerated soil mixes and keep it moist just not saturated. This is most important with Chemical nutes. Organics are more stable. And PH 5.8-6.0 ALWAYS.

And HID guys beware! Canopy temps are generally 7-10 degrees hotter than the room air temp because of the intense Infrared created by HID!!! That's a BIG advantage of LED's, the plants temp is more even and not hotter the higher up the plant you go, and also why LED growers need to run hotter room temps than HID to get the same metabolic rate and similar yields. BTW, RootMaker makes an air pruning pot system (the white ones) that does not have the evaporation issues of normal fabric pots. And they have little caps for the pot. I highly recommend them. PS.. I can't wait for my 4 new CLW 440's I am STOKED!!!!!!! HID's in my small room Bye Bye and good riddance!! And the big room goes as soon as I can get it together.

Some of this may be obvious so forgive me for that, but I hope this helps, and thanks for letting me be a part of this great forum...

That was an interesting read, thanks.
Please do Enjoy those awesome new 440's. I look forward to reading about your success with them.

From day one, this new SS880 has performed flawlessly for me. Still learning where the sweet spot for correct height, distance is.
But only burned a couple of minor leaves so far, in the learning process.

The growth rate to date, truly is phenomenal and I can only imagine while smiling, that the fruits of this intensive labor will be quite sweet.

RedHotPoker

Alchemist wrote:To the best of my understanding, optimal grow temp is based on a few things. First is CO2. The higher the CO2, the higher the temperature the plant can handle before shutting down growth. At 2000ppm (plants can actually use much higher levels but humans risk headaches and even death as the levels exceed 3000) you can probably run over 90 degrees and get VERY rapid growth.

Temperature is the primary metabolic (growth rate) regulator on plants if everything else is optimal. But the plant will only grow as fast as the weakest link. And as temps get over 90 deg EVERYTHING has to be right or you risk the plant closing up and stopping growing. They won't die, (I've had mothers outside do just fine at 105 degrees in the SHADE with freshly watered ie cool root masses) but they wont GROW above a certain threshold that is a product of CO2 level, Humidity, and as always optimal light levels. Nutes are less important as most people over feed anyway.

As for night temps, the KEY is the root mass temp. Because of the high thermal mass of a wet root mass, generally the root temp will be around the mid-point (average) between the hottest day temp and the coolest night temp. Obviously, the dryer the root ball is the hotter it will get. You want to keep that average root temp BELOW about 75-78 degrees because oxygen saturation of nutrients decreases linearly with temp and root nasties (bad fungus etc.) like warm, low oxygen conditions. Roots also actually change if exposed to prolonged low oxygen, and become less efficient, so keeping root oxygen high is CRITICAL for growth and health. So, the hotter you run in the daytime, the colder you need to run your nights, so that you maintain an average optimal root temp of around 72ish. And keeps those bugs (Bacteria) fed with a LITTLE sugar (maybe 1 tsp / gal of Botanicare Sweet) in the nutes because bugs like Bacillus Subtilis eat the slimy carbohydrate material the roots sluff off as they grow and keep them sparkly clean. From the research I've done so far, exactly how much sugar the plants can actually absorb through the roots is a still a matter of speculation, but it is proven mychorizza can allow some sugar uptake cause they break the sugars down first. The roots do store carbs though so it would make sense.. (See Sweet potato)

Also, the hotter you go, the dryer the air should be to assist in water transpiration (which also carries more nutes) to cool and feed the plant. But if you run below 50% humidity (Which in general I do not recommend until the last 2 weeks without covers) it is helpful to cover the top of the pot with the little lids they sell to reduce pot evaporation. Pot evaporation increases the nute concentration in the pot since only the water evaporates not the minerals, and it can cause nute lockout or toxic levels.

So the hotter and dryer you run, the more frequently you want to water with just water and maybe a little 1/4 strength Final Phase or other EBDT (chelation agent) product to re-dissolve and utilize those left behind nutes and keep the overall levels down. The pot lids all but eliminate this requirement, but usually do one good flush at 4-5 weeks. And when an area of the pot gets bone dry, those nutes turn to salts and oftentimes are resistant to re-solution, so you have to be careful of letting pots completely dry more than the top 1/2 inch or so. Use more aerated soil mixes and keep it moist just not saturated. This is most important with Chemical nutes. Organics are more stable. And PH 5.8-6.0 ALWAYS.

And HID guys beware! Canopy temps are generally 7-10 degrees hotter than the room air temp because of the intense Infrared created by HID!!! That's a BIG advantage of LED's, the plants temp is more even and not hotter the higher up the plant you go, and also why LED growers need to run hotter room temps than HID to get the same metabolic rate and similar yields. BTW, RootMaker makes an air pruning pot system (the white ones) that does not have the evaporation issues of normal fabric pots. And they have little caps for the pot. I highly recommend them. PS.. I can't wait for my 4 new CLW 440's I am STOKED!!!!!!! HID's in my small room Bye Bye and good riddance!! And the big room goes as soon as I can get it together.

Some of this may be obvious so forgive me for that, but I hope this helps, and thanks for letting me be a part of this great forum...

Oh my goodness, thank you. There was so much information here, I had to read it a couple times to process it all.

After reading your post, I've decided that you're right, and I should lower my night temps back again, instead of raising them. This does increase condensation on the light ducting as the exhaust fan runs all the time, but it will keep the root ball cooler. I remember that is crucial from my DWC days.

I wonder if you think it would be worth it to add some ice to the water to chill it a bit before applying it to the plants. I think if I use some chilled water before lights out, I can really help the root temperature stay in a more optimal range. Do you think that this is an unnecessary step?

Also as far as covering the lids of my cloth pots, I've thought about doing it many times. I'm thinking that I'll just cut some panda film to lay over the top of all the containers, block light out and help with evaporation. Two things have kept me from doing it so far: 1) providing a dark, warm, moist place for bacteria and bugs to live and 2) I want to make sure that I get some degree of evaporation, so that the roots do get the oxygen they need at night. I run CO2 all day, but I shut it off 1 hour before lights out to allow the plants to photosynthesize CO2 into O2. I think 1 hour is enough time, especially with the plants this size, but I haven't verified that. I probably should.

I really liked my rootmaker pots when the plants were little. I will definitely have to check them out for my next grow. Your opinion is that they're better than cloth?

Thank you again for your post! Will you be posting a journal? I'd almost kill a man to read a journal with (4) SS440s.
MC

RedHotPoker wrote:That was an interesting read, thanks.
Please do Enjoy those awesome new 440's. I look forward to reading about your success with them.

From day one, this new SS880 has performed flawlessly for me. Still learning where the sweet spot for correct height, distance is.
But only burned a couple of minor leaves so far, in the learning process.

The growth rate to date, truly is phenomenal and I can only imagine while smiling, that the fruits of this intensive labor will be quite sweet.

RedHotPoker

You will love the SS880 for sure. I found the optimal distance for me was right at 20-22 inches. When I used the one I was provided with for the GFP, I found that this distance did a good job covering my 3.5' x 3.5' without any burning issues. What're the temps you're running with your SS880?

Thanks for stopping in!
MC

Day 28 flowering, and everything is going nicely. I don't have much to say as far as observations, measures taken, and other information that I haven't included in the post directly above.

So here's the good stuff, some photos. There are some stereoptic photos below, just for fun.



Finally, I typically take a few shots for every bud, trying to make sure I get a good exposure and focus. Amateur photography with a cell phone, but whatever. Anyway, I noticed that a few of them turned out to be pretty awesome stereoptic images when placed next to each other.




Have a fantastic day/week everyone. Always glad to hear from anyone who wants to say anything.
MC

MissingCow wrote:SME, feel free to move this grow journal wherever you want. I hope it's okay I finish the journal on this forum even though there's no more LED in my grow. Everyone is so friendly here.

Done...